Heart of Conservation, Episode #33 shownotes. Read or listen on several platforms.

Introduction:

Hi, I am Lalitha Krishnan and you’re listening to Ep# 33 of Heart of Conservation. I bring you stories from the wild that keep us all connected to our natural world. You can listen to Heart of Conservation on several platforms and read the transcript right here on my blog Earthy Matters.

Today I feel very privileged to be speaking to my mentor Dr Suresh Kumar who spiked my interest and knowledge in nature and everything wild during a citizen’s course for wildlife conservation at the Wildlife Institute of India, Dehradun, Dr Suresh is remarkable wildlife biologist who specialises in animal ecology, migration and movement studies, conservation biology. Since 2008 he has been a teacher, trainer and mentor to several students at WII.  He has crisscrossed the country in pursuit of wildlife conservation.  Be it discovering a new species of pheasant, studying macaques, using satellite telemetry to obverse the distribution of olive ridley turtles, tagging and following long distance migration patterns of Amur falcons and mapping habitats of the Great Indian Bustard, Dr Suresh has several feathers in his cap.  He was also part of the 29th Indian Scientific Expedition to Antarctica in 2009, where he conducted aerial surveys for marine mammals and birds. I always look forward to snippets of his many wildlife adventures that he updates us with in his unique storytelling style.

 I am also very happy to have as a guest on today’s episode, his research student Amarjeet Kaur, completed her graduation and post-graduation from Delhi and then moved to Wildlife Institute of India. At WII, she first started her journey working on the migration and conservation of Amur Falcons in Nagaland and Manipur, and thereafter, joined for her PhD on another long-distance migratory bird. Amarjeet is now completing her PhD on the first study of Barn swallows in India. Together they have been working on a lesser-known species that most of us take for granted.

Thank you both so much. Welcome to the Heart of Conservation podcast.

1. My first question is why is your research focused on the Barn swallow? Why not some big exotic or rarely spotted species?

2:35

Dr Suresh Kumar: Thank you Lalitha for having us in your podcast. Well, you asked quite a challenging question especially when there are so many beautiful birds all over; not that the barn swallows are not beautiful but to me they are very unique. They are an extremely interesting group of birds and that they are long distance migrants, very common;  it’s a human commensal. It lives very close to people. it actually literally requires people to actually survive and they are long distance migrants like I mentioned earlier. They are possibly travelling 1000s of kilometres like many other species.  And in India, the barn swallows come to the Himalayas to breed. So, they are summer breeding visitors and by the time the monsoon arrives, they leave. So where do they go? There are some interesting details about these birds that we still don’t know. I think Amarjeet will possibly be able to  tell you a little bit more about the local connections, the cultural connects of this bird and it’s very interesting.

3:58 

Amarjeet Kaur:

Very interesting question that you asked. So, I just would like to mention that because this podcast is all about barn swallows, I think it is a unique bird also because we are giving it so much importance.

in fact

Lalitha Krishnan: In fact, some of the facts you brought up are also my questions. Barn swallows are often seen –in fact they are still seen as we know–nesting in small shops here in the hills. Why do they nest inside shops and houses so close to humans? You mentioned they need us. No other bird does that except perhaps the Red-rumped swallow which is not as common though.Somehow humans too do not seem to mind barn swallows.  They may not generally like a crow nesting in their shop if you know what I mean.

Amarjeet Kaur:  Again like you rightly mentioned that humans also don’t seem to mind. Barn swallows, they love to go inside the houses inside the shops as we have found out during our surveys and it is not just in India, it is everywhere that they are actually dependent on human buildings or shops and houses.  So what is so unique about these birds? Earlier they never used to, as is mentioned in literature, they never used to nest inside shops. And it is not just in India, it is everywhere that they are actually dependent on human buildings or human houses.

So what is unique about these birds?  Earlier they never used to nest inside shops.They used to nest in caves and crevices. And, they are such a smart species that as they found out humans are coming up with the buildings they found that right opportunity to get in. So what is the use? Why are they actually nesting inside saree shops which are so busy? If you go to Nainital market you will be astounded to see that it is so crowded. Barn swallows don’t seem to mind, they just lie around, feed their chicks and they are just there. It’s because they actually get an additional protection for their nest from predators. 

Because, when you observe the nest, you’ll see it is a mud nest  but it is open from the top. So I have found in the nest, when there are less nesting spaces, they have to resolve to the outside– in corridors– and they build their nests in corridors. And those are more prone to attacks by predators or by other commensal species so they see a lot of competitions in other species so that’s why they are more prone to go inside your house and make the nest And, like the red rumped swallow that you mentioned, I will just like to add they again build mud nests but their nest is closed/tunnel shaped so they don’t need that extra protection. That is what red-rumped swallows can nest outside, it’s because their nests are closed.

7:01:

Dr Suresh Kumar: Just adding on to what Amarjeet said, it will be interesting for your listeners to know that while we generally talk about human footprint, and how this has literally shaped the environs around, and we mostly look at it from a negative connect. Right? About displacing species from their natural habitats. But strangely there are certain species which benefit from human activities, changes in land use types because of humans or people. And, I think barn swallows are fantastic examples of that. The name ’Barn’–it was otherwise known as the Common swallow earlier– but the name ‘barn’ is because of its strong association to the barn. And, this is a very western thing. Like in America, in the rural areas they have  a barn to stock all the food that is required for their livestock. Here in India, in the Himalayas, we do have such a thing but it is not like they live in the barns. They live in people’s houses. And, I think there is an interesting connect here to religion. To the hindu religion, or for that matter to other faiths also…the Islamic faith or the Christian faith…anywhere you find people of different faiths living here in the Himalayas, they all have a very strong connection to these birds. They refer to these birds as Amarjeet will call the ‘Devchidya’, locally known in some places as ‘devchidya’-the God bird of the Himalayas that we would say. They are related to the significance of wealth or prosperity. So, if these birds come into your property to nest naturally, it’s a sign of prosperity. So it’s welcome. For the hindus, it’s a Laxmi avatar. 

9:9

Coming to the other question as to why barn swallows have evolved this strategy of nesting inside people’s houses or in shops. I think in the natural world there is always some competitive force or the other. There is also this major predation pressure. So, there must have been in the evolutionary period of time, there must have been strong predations affecting populations of barn swallows,probably everywhere. And those populations that started to nest closer to people’s houses and then taking the benefits of moving into people’s houses to nest may have survived. That’s how this shift from the natural environment which Amarjeet mentioned–nesting in- caves-might have moved to now, living with people. Also if you see, during this so-called evolutionary period of time, humans have also begun to settle down. I would say, with settled agriculture, these birds also had started to evolve the strategy of living closer to humans and thereafter, literally being commensals. 

10:31 

Now, the other interesting point that Amarjeet mentioned is, then why didn’t the red-rumped swallow also nest inside? Whether it makes a cup-shaped nest or tunnel shaped nest–they are mud nesters.They could have also moved in. Hare, it appears like there is an understanding among the red-rumped swallow and the barn swallow. In a simplistic way of looking at it, “Hey, we will nest outside, you nest inside.”Compatibility Okay?  So if I have to look at it from a more technical point of view, here it is competition for nesting space. So, they would be highly territorial in terms of holding onto a property. 

Among barn swallow individuals you will see strong territoriality. They will chase one another away. And some of these birds come back to the same nests to nest every year. In the same house. So, territoriality plus competition for space has shaped this. So the red-rumped swallows, the poorer cousins of the barn swallows, are forced to nest outside. So, there also, because of predation pressure, are nesting close to human households. But here, nesting outside would still evoke some predation. So, they have evolved the strategy of completely closing their nest with a very narrow passage tunnel for them to enter in unlike the barn swallows’ which are cup shaped and exposed. So they build it inside.

12:08

It’s amazing when you see these birds, all swallows,closely related, and how they are associating with humans and the understanding amongst them. “Okay, I nest inside, you nest outside. My housing architecture will be this way..” “Mine will be this way.” 

12:33

Lalitha Krishnan: We have a lot to learn from the swallows. I wish we would behave like that especially when it comes to housing. And be nice to our neighbours. So, all shops shut for the night. Where do barn swallows go when that happens? How do they understand and manage our concept of time?

12:44

Amarjeet Kaur” That’s truly an amazing question. Because those who are unaware of barn swallows nesting may wonder  where these birds go at night. These birds perfectly time their arrival and departure from the shops with the shopkeeper. They know the time the shop closes so they enter just before the shops are going to close. Early in the morning, they will actually wake up the humans–if the house is also attached to the shop–they start their chit-chat, chit-chat ..almost like, “Let us out, let us go out.”

13:21

I have interviewed so many people and they often say, “these birds start calling us at 4 o’clock  in the morning and we have to open the shutters for them. Because their chicks are in the nest, the swallows have to go out and fetch food for them. So, somehow for every different shop, the timing matches perfectly. It could be because, every year, they are coming back, they know the shop’s closing time. They were really affected during COVID. What happened everywhere during Corona is that shops were closed. Some birds were actually inside the shops. What some owners did was, they shooed away the adult birds but they couldn’t do anything about the chicks..the juveniles. So a lot of shop owners actually saw failed nesting. But, again, the hill people, they are big hearted. They made a space for barn swallows to enter. They cut their shutters just for barn swallows to enter.

14:30

Dr Suresh Kumar: They would create openings.For example, if the birds were nesting inside the house, we have seen places where they have removed the glass pane from a window so that the birds could enter. This is truly amazing. We’ve been talking about this from the bird point of view but when you look at it from a people point of view, people just love these birds. Of course, they have that religious connect and look at them as very sacred birds and things like that but even otherwise, like Amarjeet was mentioning, the birds know when the shop is going to be shut. But, there were many times when the birds wouldn’t arrive and the shopkeeper would wait for a few more hours for the birds to come. He would keep the shutter open. So, you can imagine the kind of association that people have with these birds. And, they are very strongly protective. They wouldn’t allow anybody to touch them. It will almost be like touching distance where they would make the nests. Birds also recognise the owner of the shop–seeing him day in and out or the people residing in a particular house. If there is a stranger like me and Amarjeet, walking into a shop, immediately  you will notice an alert  behaviour, they will be looking at us differently. I think in the minds of these birds they know, they have facial recognition clearly. They are able to distinguish. So, when I look at barn swallows,  and when I particularly go back every year and look at those individuals, which we have possibly caught previously and put a ring on them and they look at us…they know… Hey, these guys have come back.

16:15

Lalitha Krishnan: It almost sounds like a pet’s relationship with its owner except these birds are free to come and go but it seems like the same association. 

16:31

Amrjeet Kaur: There is a general perception that in the north-east that everybody is a hunter. If you go into the forests, you don’t see much wildlife, specifically in Nagaland. When we entered Manipur, in Imphal valley, only in this valley are the (swallows) nesting. They are not nesting as they nest in Uttarakhand at higher elevations. They are nesting at 700 metres in the valley. And, there again, people are protecting them. They again consider them as Laxmi or good fortune. If you go there from kids to the elderly know the word ‘Sambraang.’ You just have to say the word and they will show you the nest. That bird is that popular. Even in the main city of Imphal centre. 

17:13

Lalitha Krishnan: Amazing. Dr Suresh you did speak about swallows migrating but because of that one doesn’t see barn swallows all year. Where are they migrating from?  What distances do they fly?

17:31

Dr Suresh Kumar: Well, at this point in time, we don’t know. Before I get into the technicalities of this question, I’d like to tell you about what Amarjeet and I have been reading about what people generally think about barn swallows. Where they come from. I think Amarjeet will be happy to share that information about what people think. They all know the swallows come from somewhere. Or rather, where they go after breeding.

18:08

Amarjeet Kaur: I want to narrate a beautiful story of a shopkeeper I met in north Bengal. .He said.” I think the mother birds, after completing nesting, they go and take a dip in Kashi and they devote their souls to the heavens”.  I said, “Why do you think like this?”  He mentioned that his grandmother was curious and since then, they had been observing these birds. One day she tied a thread on this bird because birds were also accustomed to them. They knew them as Dr Suresh had mentioned. She tied the thread and next year, the thread was not there.From that point onwards they thought that adult birds go away after completing the nesting. They go and take a dip in the Kashi -in some river and they never return.  The birds that return they think are their juveniles. That’s what people believed. 

19:19

Again, the ringing that we did last year created that amazement in people. They could see their birds returning. They felt good that those are the same birds and that they are not taking a dip in the Kashi but are possibly migrating.

19:41

Suresh Kumar:  From the story that Amarjeet just mentioned, the perceptions that locals have about these birds, if you actually look at it technically, they are in a way right. These are small passerine birds and they have a short life span. It’s not that they are coming every year for years. It’s not the same pair of individuals coming. So, I think they may perish and the point is also  these birds being migrants are faced with lots of threats wherever they go. So the chances of probability that they would return back the next year is far lower than for many other species.  

20:24

I would like to add a personal note to this story. Way back when I was in college in 1993 I did a small project for my entomology course in Bangalore. It had a field component to it and I would look at birds and see what they feed on. And there’s one particular site where I used to look for birds and insects in Bangalore. It happened to be in winter. I happened to see thousands of barn swallows hanging around, foraging there. So, my story of working with barn swallows dates back to that time. I used to wonder where these birds were coming from. Thereafter, I have had a series of such sightings of barn swallows in winter. If it was along the Gujarat coastline…right in the Arabian sea coast, I would see thousands of barn swallows all ganging up, gathering together on a powerline. It would give you a feel that they were all getting together, preparing themselves to go somewhere.

21:40

If you look at the sites where I had seen them, it gave me a feeling. Are they headed in the direction of Africa? Then, you also see barn swallows in the Andamans and Nicobar islands in winter. That would mean they have made oceanic crossings. So, of course in literature what we know about barn swallows is that they are truly long distance migrants. The European birds, the Canadian birds, they would all breed up there in the Northern latitudes and cross the equator and go down into the southern hemisphere. So, they are truly long distance flyers if you are saying that, you know, how many kilometres?  They would be flying 20,000 kms one way; 10,000-20,000 kms. It can vary across populations. That’s the story  that we are still not sure of what is happening here in India. What we have been speculating is that along the Himalayan range, that’s about 2500 kms long, even if say  that barn swallows are nesting in 2000 kms length of the mountains, starting from Kashmir all the way to Bhutan, and thereafter in Arunachal you don’t see them nesting. That’s another story. The populations that are nesting as far west as the western Himalaya -that’s in Kashmir valley,could very likely be going down into Pakistan  and thereafter heading out further south. Which may mean they are going down to Africa and joining the European populations that are migrating  down there. And then, when it’s time to return, they would again go back their different ways and come back to Kashmir or the western Himalaya.

23:19

So, now it’s interesting those populations you see in the east, that you see in Manipur, that you see in Darjeeling, would they also come down to peninsular India and head out down to Africa? We also see populations wintering in peninsular India. Southern India: Kerala, Tamil Nadu and all these areas. So, it’s possible that there are some populations of barn swallows moving within the Indian region. They are all moving to breed in the Himalayas but they all have different routes or different wintering ranges. So some populations would go down to Africa, some populations would be coming down to peninsular India or Southern India or Sri Lanka.  Some populations are going down into South-east Asia. Some of those could be actually heading down into the Andamans and Nicobar islands.

So incredible migration stories are still to be unearthed. We don’t know but these are possibilities.naturally, even if we talk about within the Indian region, for a small passerine bird weighing about 17-20 gms, they are easily covering about 5000 kms one way. 

24:34

Lalitha Krishnan: It’s mind boggling.The logistics. How do they manage? I don’t know if this is a silly question after all that you’ve said. Why don’t they stay here till winter? Has it got to do with the availability of their diet?

24:53

Amarjeet Kaur: Yes.

Suresh Kumar: We can answer that question.

24:58

Amarjeet Kaur: That’s absolutely true…in response to the availability of food. These birds like pleasant summer weather and that’s what they are tracking throughout their range. So when they do come to the hills it is at the start of March or end of February-March where you see lots of insects because of the change in weather. And once you hit June or July and it starts to rain heavily..persistent rains that stop these birds from going out to forage, that is the time that they finish nesting, pack up and start to move down possibly to south India or Africa, where it is summer and they again enjoy the availability of food.

25:50

Suresh Kumar: We saw a very interesting pattern. There are swallows that have adapted to living in urban centres like in the city and there are swallows that live in the village. Just like people. We are city dwellers and there are people who want to stay away from the city. They are happy living in the villages. Like that, we do see swallows behaving that way. 

I have often wondered what it would be like if we picked up some of the swallows from the village and went and left them in the city? They would say “No.”  In the city the question comes up…they are aerial insectivorous birds. So, they are picking up insects in the air, right? Now, what do they get in the city? What do they eat? 

26:39

So, very interestingly we saw swallows in Imphal town foraging at the traffic signals. If there is a major intersection, the moment the red light comes on at a particular section, the swallows would immediately come and forage in front of those vehicles. And they would fly between the vehicles. And, fly very low. The moment the green light comes on, the swallows would shift to the next section. It’s all learnt. So they are birds that forage there and of course you see other swallows that are foraging in nice, clean environs you know? Smokeless environments like over the lake…very scenic places. But here they are foraging among all the chaos and people. Sometimes, they are just flying straight to you and flying over your head. They have very high manoeuvrability; they do lots of acrobatic things in the air. It’s amazing. Actually, Amarjeet and I during our visit to Manipur, we did stop at one such road crossing just to watch how these birds are behaving. I was mind-blown. It was too good.

28:12

Lalitha Krishnan: Very cool.

Amarjeet Kaur: They show high adaptability  and intelligence.

28:18

Lalitha Krishnan: You have also been ringing the barn swallows. This is the first time barn swallows in India have been ringed. Which by itself is amazing. Tell us about that experience and what information does a leg-ring on a bird reveal?

28:39

Dr Suresh Kumar:Rightly mentioned, Amarjeet’s study is the first detailed ecological study of the species in the Indian region. The focus has been to understand their nesting sites. For instance, when do they arrive here? We’re talking about nesting periodicity. When do they arrive and when do they depart? And, we are also trying to understand this across the HImalayan axis. So, what happens to birds? How do birds in Kashmir valley behave or when do they arrive? When do they nest compared to the east, in Manipur? In Manipur,we have a resident population of barn swallows. They don’t migrate. That’s again very very interesting.

29:26

Why don’t those populations migrate? Everywhere else in the Himalayas you will see swallows migrate.

29:32

Lalitha Krishnan: I want to know that.

29:34

Suresh Kumar: That’s a different story and it’s very interesting. Now, the first thing that we wanted to as part of our study, what we wanted to understand was whether it is the same pair that is nesting in a particular shop or a home.So how do we know that? They all look alike.Okay. There could be some select features–if you observe them very intently, very closely but then your sample size is going to be very small. So one way to get around this is to actually individually colour-mark birds. Ring birds. So you know, this individual is ringed and this is an individual coming back to this particular shop. That is the purpose of ringing.

30:17

And, they are also known to nest multiple times in a season. So they arrive in the month of March and they immediately make a clutch. They would finish and then go in for a second clutch.So, asking for those in depth questions like their reproductive investment in the first clutch–is it more as compared to the second clutch? What dictates all of this? Is it also the fitness of the bird? Does it mean that the heavier birds have larger clutch size v/s individuals that are not  great in terms of plumage or slightly low in weight? Not that, they would vary amongst them a lot but these are all interesting questions.

31:10

You would also notice that barn swallows though territorial around their nest site, they are also social. So, wherever there are barn swallows nesting you would invariably see a lot more. So there is clustering of these birds when it comes to nesting sites .Now, that is the story, they are also taking  benefits of staying together. Maybe it has something to do with looking for food. Or maybe they would gang up together to shoo away  or chase away a predator. Or it could be as simple as giving an alarm like if there were a cat prowling around, they would give an alarm to indicate to the others. So, that;s some benefits there.

31:51

If this is the case, we also do see some individuals nesting solitarily. So why are these birds not taking the benefits? Are these birds not in great reproductive conditions? Are they not dominant enough that they can’t live amongst the flock so they are going and nesting elsewhere? Are these young birds breeding for the first time so they are nesting elsewhere? 

32:15

In order to answer all of these questions, you need to neatly mark individuals so you can try and understand these birds in more detail. Now the last part of it is that they are so small. They are very tiny birds–like I mentioned earlier:20 gms. And, whether you can put a small transmitter; a small device on these birds and whether they will come back the next year or not is also dependent on you being able to put rings on them. And, checking out whether they are the same individuals who are returning. Confirming that they do show site fidelity. This is very well documented in other populations elsewhere in the world.

33:02

But before you go in for deploying a tracking device, it’s first important to deploy a simple ring. You know? Ask some of these basic questions. Confirm  for site fidelity-that they do come back. Natal homing. They come back to their homes..their respective nest sites.That is the reason why we have started off with this ringing.

I think Amarjeet can further add on the fact on how ringing has actually helped create more conservation awareness.

33:36

Amarjeet Kaur: I will add to the experience first; the experience we had while ringing these birds. We will start from Kashmir and go all the way to Manipur.

When we went to Kashmir, we observed that these birds are nesting inside houses. And everywhere, people were just welcoming (us) strangers who had come to take their birds in our hands–they considered the birds as their own.And when they got to know that we were going to catch them, the first question they asked was, “Are you going to harm our birds”? So that’s the pressure we had everywhere we went to ring the birds because people are so close to these birds. This was our first time, catching the barn swallows and ringing them. So  there was this doubt: What if the birds don’t return? What if we scare them? These people will be really upset. But luckily nothing of that sort happened. I think this is because these birds are used to humans.That’s the advantage.

34:37

And, when we went to ring these birds in Kashmir, it would begin with people greeting us, offering us tea. And then, they would say, “now you go ahead and catch these birds. But before everything you have to have tea or something from our house”. That’s the culture. You can’t just do your work and move out.That was truly an overwhelming experience that I had in Kashmir. It actually brought tears to my eyes. 

35:05

And then we move on to Uttarakhand. So here, most of the nesting happens inside shops. And people have their timings right? People have to shut their shops by 7:00 pm. So what we did was, we caught these birds by night to avoid disturbance. Because, they nest in markets and we cannot place mist nets in daylight and disturb the tourists and everybody. So,  at night, when the birds are resting we catch them, ring them and release them back into the shop. That gives them time to get used to it and by morning they get back to their routine. So, people actually waited for us. They kept their shops open till 1:00 am in the night and they were with us watching everything we were doing. And they were okay with it. They say, “Do your work, no problem. We will manage, we will be here with you.

36:00

Dr Suresh Kumar: Now it has reached to the extent where people who earlier used to be apprehensive are now asking us, “Why did you not come this year and ring the birds?” Why don’t you ring the chicks? We want to know whether the chicks will come back to our house. So you know, they are also in a way, have become part of our story. Our research. 

And now they have begun to understand that these birds are truly special. They all know that they are very special. Very unique. But the point is when we share the stories of where these birds are possibly going and all our stories of connecting with Kashmir and Manipur, with the people of Uttarakhand, people seem to appreciate this a lot better.

 36:57

So there is this (lost in translation) approach  which is basically- it’s a taboo amongst all of the local communities that you should never touch the bird. “If you touch the bird, they will not come.” To break that and do our work was a huge challenge. But then, it worked. While I tell you this story, some people have simply refused. They say,”Nothing doing. You do research; don’t touch the bird. If you touch the bird, they will not come back, which is a bad omen for us.” Thankfully for us, we managed to convince people.

37:28

Amarjeet Kaur: Coming back to my story in West Bengal… We caught some birds in West Bengal. They were not nesting inside shops but were outside on wires and it was midnight. We didn’t have enough light to process these birds -to take measurements. And, we asked one lady who was just closing her house; “Can we come in and use one room to ring these birds?” She said, “Yes, come”. You won’t believe this; we actually sat in her kitchen while she was cooking food and did our work. It was amazing.

In Manipur, they were again nesting in houses and rooms that were not well lit. There too, people helped us, letting us use their emergency lights. In one house there were multiple rooms and multiple pairs were nesting. The house owners were saying, “you have to come here. There are birds in this room also.” They helped us hold the poles, they gave us light to work so it was beautiful. And all this, as Sir mentioned, has created a lot more awareness among people. They are now keeping track of these birds. They tell us when the birds come and invite us to come back or ask “why didn’t you come this year?” Or say, “ You need to tag more birds.”  When I started collecting data, everybody would tell me. “Oh we never noticed this.” It’s good that you came and now we will also pay more attention to these birds.” I think that’s fabulous.

 39:02

Lalitha Krishnan: I think what you are doing is fabulous and unknowingly, there’s a community of people now in different states doing conservation along with you. That’s fantastic. Talking of barn swallows, how long do they live?

39:22

Dr Suresh Kumar: These are small passerine birds and given that they are long distance migrants, there must be a lot of physiological stress on these birds. I suspect that they live for maybe 5-6 years. So, that is what their lifespan is. But they are highly productive so they raise clutches of five…sometimes, seven to eight chicks in one nest. So the nest is brimming with these chicks and sometimes, there is no space and the chicks fall off. So, the birds are quite productive. I think, to add to all this, their lifespan may not be much. This is the story of what we hear from literature, not something we have documented. That is again possible only through ringing. You ring the chick and you will know if it returns next year to breed. They also possibly mature earlier, and be ready to breed. And how often are they coming back? For how many years after ringing are they coming back. This is a very interesting story to document.

40:34

Lalitha Krishna: That’s wonderful. I have something. Red rumped swallows built a nest near my home; I don’t exactly know where. By the time they had their second clutch I felt like the juveniles were helping them build/repair the nest. Because, the numbers just increased. Is that possible?

41:06

Dr Suresh Kumar: Some young birds do practise building nests. You would invariably see this with the weaver birds.The Baya weaver and the other weaver birds also. You would see that while the dominant adults are busy building their nests, the young individuals–you can make them out by their plumage that these guys are young–they would also build nests. What is interesting is that they are also seeing the adult birds and they are learning. You can see that their construction is not that great. It’s documented that these birds are practising  their nest building. So, in the case of the red-rumped swallows you observed, it’s very likely that they are also learning to build a nest. 

There are a few other cases where young birds–especially the cooperative breeders– the young birds join in to help their parents, the breeding adults, to build the nest though they may not be breeding or coming into breeding immediately. That’s a different aspect altogether. This is possible

42:21

Amarjeet Kaur: There could be one more possibility of another pair coming in and competing for the same nest. That could also happen. Or that the male is coming and trying to impress the female.” Okay see, I am also competent enough..ha ha.”

42:38

Lalitha Krishnan: That’s also possible. My last question to you both is could you share a word or experience or concept  that will help us understand the barn swallow or remember it in a new way? Something that will add to our vocabulary.

41:57

Amarjeet Kaur: I think firstly for the vocabulary, you should remember ‘Dev chidiya’. There are different names across the Himalayan range. In Kashmir they are known as ‘Katij’. That’s a beautiful name. And when you come to Uttarakhand, there are different names. ‘Dev chidiya’, ‘Dhan chidiya’. You have Gotayi in eastern Uttarakhand.There is an interesting part here.  Near eastern Uttarakhand you have Nepal. We couldn’t go to Nepal but if you move to north Bengal again they call it ‘Gotali’.

43:37

Dr Suresh Kumar: There is a Nepali influence. The language, the dialects as you transit from the west to the east or east to west, you know there are people of different cultures and regions. They have their own language so the birds have also got their own names. We know very well that in Uttarakhand there is the Nepali influence. So some of these names do have a slightly different touch.

44:16

Amarjeet Kaur: in Manipur, they call the barn swallow ‘Sambraang’. Sambraang is the bird  which guides house building. They believe the way the birds build their nests is a sign that humans should also build their house in a particular direction. I will be good for them.

44:31

That’s so inspiring

44:33

Amarjeet Kaur: Exactly. I want your listeners to remember this: when yo go to the hills- it has become habitual for us, we consciously do this-if you are going to the hills, to around 1000 metres elevation, do look into the shops or homes and see if the barn swallows are nesting there or not. And stand there for five minutes and observe how they go into crowded spaces and manage to nest there.

45:13

Dr Suresh Kumar: For many of my research stories that I have been working on, the word, ‘connection’ resonates in every aspect of my studies. Or every species that I study.  So the barn swallow is also something that gets me that connection.  There is something from the emotional point of view but it also teaches me about how for these birds, it’s not one region or landscape that’s important. It’s the entire Indian or Asian region that’s important for them. So, it’s connecting multiple cultures. It’s connecting multiple landscapes. So, when I look at the barn swallow in the Himalayas, it gives me this visual of these birds having gone to my backyard in southern India. And if I see these birds in Southern India,  then I think they must have been in this particular shop somewhere up in the Himalayas. Resting in somebody’s house, raising its clutch of five-six birds… So, you know, it connects you and I think when you start to observe things in nature, these connections become very important. I think it’s important for us all to be connected. And, I think these birds are fantastic examples of how important it is to understand nature. What’s happening in nature and things like that. You asked me for one word; it’s connection. The barn swallows truly have that connection.

47:01

Culturally also, there are so many stories. Some people think they(the birds) just go and die in the Ganga. So, the Ganga is the holiest river in the world. That holiness…people are relating to these things. It’s just incredible. So yes, these connections are big for me.

47:24

Lalitha Krishan: Thank you so much. I am so touched and inspired. Dr Suresh, I think your whole career path is like the swallows. You travel place to place, continent to continent saving the birds and other species.

47:38

Dr Suresh Kumar: I am still on a journey. I wish that this journey never ends. As Amarjeet’s field work is coming to an end, I am now wondering after she is gone…like the barn swallow she too will go away somewhere far– and I still need to follow the swallows. At this point of time, we are primarily doing this work because it’s her project and we are understanding the barn swallows. Of course there will be someone else also interested in the barn swallows. But I truly wish that this journey not only for me, but also for Amarjeet,never ends. We continue to follow the swallows for the rest of their lives.

48:20

Amarjeet Kaur: It’s never going to end for me as well.The connection word that Sir mentioned has got to me also. Now, I’m completely connected to the species.

48:32

Lalitha Krishnan: Yes, and also all the people who are homing them, looking after them. It’s great. Thank you both so much.

Birdsong by hillside resident, the collared owlet.

Photos Credit/Courtesy: Amarjeet Kaur and Rajdeep Mitra. Podcast cover/label design by Lalitha Krishnan.

Disclaimer: Views, thoughts, and opinions expressed in the podcast and show notes belong solely to the guest/guests featured in the episode, and not necessarily to the host of this podcast/blog or the guest’s employer, organization, committee or other group or individual