#naturepodcast

The Dynamics of Biodiversity in the Andaman Islands with Herpetologist, Researcher, Author, Nariman Vazifdar.

~ Lalitha Krishnan ~ Leave a comment

Heart of Conservation Episode #35 Show Notes (Edited)

Nariman Vazifdar during a snake rescue.
Littorial forest by Narimam Vazifdar
Tail of a red tailed trinket Photo by Nariman Vazifdar
Photo courtesy Narimam Vazifdar
Andaman Cat snake Photo by Nariman Vazifdar
Andaman Day Gecko Photo by Nariman Vazifdar

Host:Lalitha Krishnan:

00:03: Hi there, I’m Lalitha Krishnan, your host on episode #35 of Heart of Conservation. As usual, I bring you stories from the wild that keep us all connected with our natural world. I’m back after a very long spell during which I visited the Andaman and Nicobar Islands. I still can’t get over those amazing beaches, the old forest and the incredible species that I spotted there. All new to me, but endemic to the island. But the question is, for how long? I can’t think of a better person than naturalist, herpetologist on ground in the Andamans, Nariman Vazifdar, to answer that and more.

You can read his writings on the web, including on ResearchGate, and follow his Insta handle @reptilian_666 to see what he’s up to. And do look out for the transcript and links for this podcast coming soon on my blog, Earthy Matters. Welcome to Heart of Conservation, Nariman. Thank you so much for speaking to me about this. And the ecology of the islands.Ever since you guided us through that beautiful Andaman bulletwood forest by the beach, my curiosity has only grown. ] So since your first love is reptiles, could you enlighten us about the diversity of reptiles found on the island? And first, do tell us a little bit about yourself and about the diversity of endemic species on the island.

Guest: Nariman Vazifdar:

Hi, Lalitha. Thanks for having me on Heart of Conservation podcast.

01:36: Yes, basically reptiles are what, let’s not put it as reptiles, but wildlife. I was really attached to wildlife at an early age. When in school, I joined this program called the Duke of Edinburgh Award Scheme Program, which basically took us outdoors, a lot of outdoor activities, kayaking, camping, and lots of social service fun. And of course, it was just being out there, especially because I was a kid from South Bombay. There is not much greenery where I live.

02:13: As soon as I stepped out of my comfort zone, the beauty of the sea, the forest around Bombay, kind of Lonavala side, and it took over my life, basically. And I saw my first snake, I remember very clearly over there, just whilst we were camping around. And I got inquisitive about this, and it just kind of took over my life slowly and slowly.

02:37: But more interestingly, when my mom comes from a place called Baroda in Gujarat, and I remember as a four-year-old child, she had taken us to this zoo over there, and she knew some of these zoos, and they had got out some snake, I think it was a python, for the kids to touch for me and my younger cousins. And I remember all of us as children were very scared of this. But my mom, for some reason, pushed me to touch the snake, and I touched the snake, and now I think she’s repenting this decision of hers.

03:10: But I basically took over. That’s all I’ve done since 2005. I have been involved in wildlife conservation research, in different parts of India, from Chennai, Bangalore, the Chambal Valley, and a couple of tiger reserves. And now, of course, finally, I live and work in Havelock Island, in the Andaman Islands.

03:31: But what draws me to this place more is, like you said, all the animals are more, because they are predominantly reptiles and less…the mammal diversity of the Andaman Islands is very poor. So, it is predominantly reptiles and more endemic species of reptiles is what we get here.

03:51: There are over, say, 23 species of snakes, of which nine are endemic. But because it’s an island–and island ecology is very different–we have terrestrial snakes, snakes that live on the land. We have mangrove snakes. We have sea snakes. So, like that, there are many, many various species of snakes on the island.

Lalitha Krishnan:

04:14: Wow. I have not even heard of mangrove snakes. Sorry for interrupting.

Nariman Vazifdar:

Yeah. No, no, no. But like, there are… you see them in high abundance. It’s just that people are not getting out there to look for them.So we have 308 islands in the Andaman Islands, and a lot of the islands are undiscovered. We don’t know what is on those islands.

04:38: The north-easternmost island of the Andaman Islands is called Narcondam Island. It is a dormant volcano, or let’s put an inactive volcano. And recently, a snake was found on that island. It’s called the Narcondam cat snake. Not found anywhere else on any other island, or not been discovered yet. So, it’s very interesting. It’s very interesting, you know, how the islands, individual islands have individual kind of small ecosystems.

Lalitha Krishnan:

05:06: That’s so incredible. So, you know, speaking of fauna in general, it’s a well-known fact that introduced species are a threat to endemic species on islands everywhere in the world. So, I just wanted to know, were there any species introduced to Andaman and Nicobar Islands? And what could be, is or could be the consequence of this?

Nariman Vazidar:

05:32: So, yes, of course, invasive species or introduced species make a massive difference to any ecological environment. Not necessarily islands, but islands face it more drastically.

Let’s say the invasive animals that are on the island currently are also due to a lot of the animals put by, say, the British when they took over the islands and they built the penal colony. So, they were only tribes living on these islands initially, the four indigenous tribes, and the British got, say, dogs, which are now everywhere on the island, to give as a gift to the Jarawas, who were one of the tribal communities, to hunt the endemic wild boar off the islands.

06:19: The dogs have now taken over the island, sadly. Don’t get me wrong. I love dogs. I’ve adopted one of the dogs from the beach. He lives with me. But these dogs, let’s say, hunt everything, right? Including the sea turtles. When the sea turtles come up to nest, they not only eat the sea turtle eggs, but sometimes I’ve seen them sadly even killing the female sea turtles when she’s coming to lay her eggs. The baby sea turtles that hatch, the snakes, the lizards. But see, it’s not the dog’s fault, right? We sadly do not have a proper neutering project on the islands. We still have a long way to go on the islands.

06:59: It is a serious problem, right? In a small place like Havelock there possibly could be 700 dogs. That is a lot of dogs for a tiny island. Of course, ecological damage happens.

Yes, the dogs are fed by the tourists, by the locals, but still, it is still a large amount of dogs on a tiny, small little island. But more than that, let’s say the other animals that people think of, but at least these are street dogs. People think all the animals in the forest also belong there. No!

07:29: Also, the British were very fond of game hunting, shikaar, so they brought three species of deer, which are barking deer, hog, deer, spotted deer. Interestingly, they also introduced three leopards to the islands in the hopes that leopards will reproduce and will do shikaar on the islands. But interestingly, the leopards did not survive in the mangrove forest, maybe they got eaten by the tribes. We do not know

…the British were very fond of game hunting, shikaar, so they brought three species of deer, which are barking deer, hog, deer, spotted deer. Interestingly, they also introduced three leopards to the islands in the hopes that leopards will reproduce and will do shikaar on the islands. But interestingly, the leopards did not survive in the mangrove forest, maybe they got eaten by the tribes. We do not know. Out of the three species of deer bark, the spotted deer is the only deer that survived  and is flourishing throughout the islands. Then again, on the island, there is no large mammal, say, no tiger, no bear. There are no monkeys. There are no squirrels on the island. Well, because of this, the deer roam freely, literally eat the undergrowth of the islands and which has more insects, more lizards…which depend on this undergrowth that gets eaten away, nothing survives then.

-Nariman Vazifdar on Heart of Conservation podcast

07:59: Out of the three species of deer bark, the spotted deer is the only deer that survived  and is flourishing throughout the islands. Then again, on the island, there is no large mammal, say, no tiger, no bear. There are no monkeys. There are no squirrels on the island. Well, because of this, the deer roam freely, literally eat the undergrowth of the islands and which has more insects, more lizards…which depend on this undergrowth that gets eaten away, nothing survives then.

08:36: The deer, the spotted deer, one species of deer is basically or literally eating the islands alive. See, there is no food left on the islands. This happens. Smaller island get (lost in translation) completely. The deer does two interesting things: 1: they wade/wait at the shore line. Wait for the tide to come in and hope that some (lost in translation)       will come.

09:02: If that doesn’t suffice, they have learnt…… to swim in the sea. Imagine. Deer. They’re swimming in the sea and going from one island to the other. It is incredible. We’ve seen this while we go diving sometimes.

09:15:A lot of them must be drowning. As conservationists, sometimes you put a heavy heart …….. and say, “Yes, it’s okay if this specific invasive animal doesn’t survive for the better good of the environment.” A lot of people will be against what I’m saying, but I stand my ground to say yes. Sometimes for the betterment of the entire ecosystem, it is okay if these animals are maybe eradicated, send back to mainland, whatever, because once islands lose their endemic fauna, it is not coming back. Right?

09:53: We have lots of (lost in translation). We have a bullfrog. You think it’s a frog, it doesn’t do much. But it grows big. There are scientific papers of (frogs) eating chickens. (lost in translation) You know, I have (lost in translation) of a bullfrog, trying to catch and eat an endemic bronzeback of the islands.

[10:10 – 10:23] So it is only a frog which does a lot of damage.

Lalitha Krishnan:

 Sorry. You saying the frog eating the chicken sounds crazy.

Nariman Vazifdar:

My friends have documented it. There is a research paper on this. Of how invasive—you know–what damage these things do. There are many of them that we do not know, right? Like, we do not really know what cats, and rats, do to the ecosystem.

10:39: I have, my friends who have cats and the cats, when they come to my home, they’re bringing emerald geckos, skinks, lizards, you know, to the house all the time.

Lalitha Krishnan:

See, we don’t see these things.

Nariman Vazifdar:

10:50: Yes, of course.  We live here, right? Long. We don’t go home much. It’s just home now. You know?  So, it’s massive, I am seeing the difference. Forget just invasive species.

11:01: The more construction that is happening over the years has also drastically driven the endemic flora fauna down.

Lalitha Krishnan: It’s so strange. Like you think, uh, you know, a deer is harmless or a cat, okay, only kills rats. We do not think what else it can do.

Nariman Vazidar:

 A lot of countries—for that matter–Australia has a rule. They can shoot the feral cats or kill the feral cats. Right? If we start this in India (lost in translation) We are not open to this right?

Photo by Nariman Vazifdar

11:30: We need to get rid of the cats and the dogs; have this conversation with people who are not thinking logically, you know, it is just a battle, a nonstop battle that people like me have with them. So we just bring this up before it’s never-ending. The topic never ends, right? It’s always nonstop. “No, this is that, but…”

From an ecological, scientific point of view, you cannot… everything can’t be driven by your heart. But, sadly, I agree. You know, but unfortunately for the betterment of the better of the other animals that belong to this place, sadly, a lot of these animals have to be out of here.

Lalitha Krishnan:

But thanks for opening our eyes. Maybe people who make the policies you know, are listening and somewhere as it will change somebody’s mind and they will do the right thing.

Nariman Vazifdar:

12:20: I mean, you can’t force this one on anyone. Including my friends, right? Even the ones that are nature-oriented. Even them. For them, no, this is what it is. Dogs and cats need to be here. You cannot even bring up the deer, you know, or the frogs.  If I say, “Let’s kill the frogs, you know they are invasive” you can see the blood boiling in them when I bring these topics up.

Lalitha Krishnan:

12:41:  Right. Right!  It’s a difficult one. You know, all the locals know you as a snake rescue on the islands. I quote you now, “No rescue is the best rescue”. What do you mean by that?

Nariman Vazifdar:

12:57: So also, yes, I never really did this snake rescue anywhere else that I have lived. Uh, yes. In places where I lived– in smaller places—if there is a snake in someone’s house. Yes. I’ll be more than happy to remove it for them, but I never did this ‘snake rescue’ thing anywhere. It was the same over here. There was a snake in someone’s home.

13:20: I went and helped out, but now Havelock is like a smaller town…a larger village, the entire Havelock. So literally, everyone knows everyone from one snake rescue to the second to the third. Now it has become, everyone knows this, but however, I rather not do this because this is not giving anyone a chance to understand how to live with snakes. Right?

13:46: This place always had King cobras; it always has a lot of snakes. But as we are going, as they say, tourism is a double-edged sword. As tourism is spreading people the locals are selling off their land to hotel chains. Of course, right?  And there are literally maybe over 100 accommodations now or places to stay in Havelock. Plus 40 plus dive shops, over 100 restaurants…  So many of us from the mainland are also living here which basically means more houses are constructed. People are cutting deep into the forest and with that comes … If you’re cutting into the forest there are more snakes entering people’s homes. What tourists are seeing are just the two main roads but there are now a lot of side lanes. I get baffled about where these side lanes are going. I thought I knew Havelock well on all the roads but no.  Every time there is a snake and I go to these places, I am shocked that these houses are deep, deep into the forest. They have cut the forest down. So yes, there is no option for the snakes but to seek refuge in those houses. So now this is what’s happening.

14:58: I basically will not catch a snake or remove a snake unless the snake is in the person’s house. When I say “in the person’s house” I mean literally in their home. If it is in the garden in a bageecha, I will not catch it because that is where the snake is supposed to be. I understand it is a king cobra; it is a highly venomous snake– the world’s longest venomous snake– but there must be some learning curve.  Otherwise, every snake they see it’s like, “Come and catch it.”  

I basically will not catch a snake or remove a snake unless the snake is in the person’s house. When I say “in the person’s house” I mean literally in their home. If it is in the garden in a bageecha, I will not catch it because that is where the snake is supposed to be. I understand it is a king cobra; it is a highly venomous snake– the world’s longest venomous snake– but there must be some learning curve.  Otherwise, every snake they see it’s like, “Come and catch it.”  -Nariman Vazifdar on Heart of Conservation podcast

Andaman pit viper Photo by Narimam Vazifdar

15:26: But I don’t go unless it is in their home and there’s a situation where I have to, I will remove it otherwise I tell them to wait. I will look, keep calm, take it easy and if the snake was in their home, yes, I will go. But otherwise, I don’t.  

15:42: So, what I mean by this is there is no need to catch every snake.  What are we doing with this (snake) right?  Again, snake catching is not a big deal. It is basic if you understand snakes.  I don’t know why people make this big hoo-ha and show about it. You can catch a snake. Then what are we doing with this?  We are relocating them somewhere else. This is not conservation. This is not research. We are literally removing a snake from A and just dumping it at B. And we think that yes, we’ve done a great job; we’ve saved a life but we don’t know if that snake survives well yet where we are literally releasing it.

Then what are we doing with this?  We are relocating them somewhere else. This is not conservation. This is not research. We are literally removing a snake from A and just dumping it at B. And we think that yes, we’ve done a great job; we’ve saved a life but we don’t know if that snake survives well yet where we are literally releasing it.

-Nariman Vazifdar on Heart of Conservation podcast

16:20:  There have been many debates, many scientific papers; research on this; on this trans locating of snakes. They are saying to try to release the snake as close to the rescue site. Now think about it.  Where I live in Havelock; there are king cobras.  Like I said, my problem is not the rescue, it is the release. Sometimes I feel very bad I’m releasing the snake a kilometre and a half away but there is no option, right? Where do I release these snakes with so much construction?

16:50: So that’s why I feel like, if not required, I will not do anything. A lot of times I get calls: “Snake is in the home.”  I say, “Okay give it 10 minutes; let’s see what happens.” And it goes away by itself; there is no need to run, jump, or catch the snake; put pictures or like, free-handle snakes. It is not necessary and this is becoming a massive trend on Instagram now where a lot of the guys, especially in Bombay, Pune, all India, are free-handling. Which basically means picking up venomous snakes with their hands; not using equipment, getting bit on their faces, and kissing cobras. It is not required. There is no need for this bravado, for showboating… Yesterday or the day before, two boys got bitten doing these stunts in Bombay and what happens if they die or lose their fingers. What is the point of this? There is no point in this. Do it if you really must do it. Yes, catch a snake but then go immediately and release it.

17:48: A lot of guys keep the snakes unethically; they keep them in plastic bottles–they don’t release themfor days and they have one thousand excuses for this.

17:58: To catch a snake, it takes two seconds. What I do when I catch a snake is release it immediately and then I go home. I don’t need to take the snake home. I don’t see the value of taking that snake home. Yeah, anyway these are my thoughts and you know and again everyone has different thoughts about this and a lot of people feel that catching a snake is conservation research but it is absolutely zero. I think we are actually hindering it and not really giving it you know, a place to go to actually.

Lalitha Krishnan:

18:30: That’s a lot of new information. It’s interesting but it’s also scary and enlightening. First of all, they have to learn how to catch a snake. I hope they just don’t follow YouTube videos…

Nariman Vazifdar:

18:45: Yeah. that is all easy but you see all these YouTubers picking up cobras, the vipers…  Why would they do this?  Right? You are literally playing Russian roulette. Nothing happens 100 times. Then, the 101st time you could die. You could lose fingers… you know? Why would you want this Cobra?  

19:05 You know, snakes live in sometimes the filthiest of places. Gutters, septic tanks…  and you’re kissing this Krait! No, not on.

Lalitha Krishnan:

19:14: Sad.  So how often do you get called to get snakes out of the house?

Nariman Vazifar.

19:19: Really, luckily, it’s not like a full-time thing.  I don’t want to do that full-time. But mostly, king cobra breeding season is now mid-February to April-May maybe.  So this time these two-three months are more.  Of course, the random one here and there but uh sometimes maybe twice in the day sometimes not a few days… It’s very erratic.

19:49: Interestingly, the snakes that I have rescued from the homes over here are either king cobras or rat snakes. I’ve never rescued a pit viper from someone’s home or kraits. None of that. It’s only been either kings or rat snakes, no other snake interestingly.

Lalitha Krishnan:  

20:06: We have rat snakes here also. In fact, one was on my door trying to get a Whistling thrush’s eggs. There’s no way to prevent these situations in places like Havelock, right? Snakes will go into your house… I don’t know.

Niriman Vazifdar:

 20:21: It’s basic. Doesn’t matter if you are in Havelock or anywhere in the world.  You keep your surroundings clean, keep your litter, don’t keep clutter around, and don’t chuck your organic waste everywhere.  They’re the basic, same rules you follow anywhere. Okay, yes of course, if you’re living in the jungle there is more likelihood that it just comes. But less likely if you keep your place and your area litter-free- free basically.

Lalitha Krishnan:

 20:51: I never thought of a snake attacking your garbage.

Nariman Vazifdar:

20:51: No. It is going for the mice, right? What is going in the garbage?  The mice, the flies then the frogs, right? Then the geckos go for the flies. So prey and predators come wherever there is food right?

21:08: If there is food for say, you chuck some mango outside, right? A rat will come to eat it. Following the rat, maybe a snake will come. Lost in translation….seeing the gecko and a snake another lizard may come. Seeing that a snake may come right? So it’s a circle and if it is near your home why wouldn’t that animal come?

And there are also some wood piles or thin sheets lying around. It’s a perfect habitat for reptiles to live in.  Where am I finding these snakes? Under thin sheets, in wood piles you know because sadly the locals are dumping all these things. So the day before, there was a rat snake under a pile of wood.  I literally removed it from one pile of wood and  I put it in the next pile of wood. Haha, What do I do?  That’s all. Because there is so much clutter around there is no option right it’s the same principle anywhere more clutter around more hiding spots, more prey base, more reptiles.

Lalitha Krishnan:

22:02 Nariman, thanks for that.  Let’s move on.  So have you ever been bitten by a snake?

Nariman Vazifdar:

22:18:  Yeah, I’ve never been bitten by a venomous snake because I always, of course, it’s been lucky, but safety is my priority for myself and the snakes. If I feel like this is… also all snakes don’t need to be caught, like I said. I’m only doing this when it is in a place where there’s a snake in someone’s home. I will not just catch a snake if I don’t have equipment. I will take my hooks, my snake pads, tubes, whatever I need,  I will wear boots. Whenever I need to go for a snake rescue, I ensure I have all my things with me. Even if the locals tell me it’s a non-venomous snake, I will judge it only when I see the snake. So many times, it’s a rat snake and I’ve gone with all my gear and then I pick it up. But yes, because I can identify venomous and non-venomous species, non-venomous snakes, yes, I have been bitten a few times. But there’s not much to learn from getting bitten. That’s why I have to figure out what because, I know for a fact, that it is a non-venomous snake. On getting bitten: let’s say, everyone asks how much does it hurt?  Of course, it’s basic sense. Smaller snakes hurt less; larger snakes hurt more. Like say, if you get bitten by a non-venomous wolf snake, it hurts a little bit.

23:36: Maybe not even, not even one drop of blood will come out. But if you get bitten by, say, a python, it could even tear your skin. You may even need stitches if it bites you back that badly. You know, you could even cut an artery, you know? So yes, it is… even smaller snakes could hurt you. If it bites you and cuts one of your arteries in your hands. Once it’s happened that more than once–and all of us who do this have experienced it– snakes sometimes when they bite us, their teeth break off in our hands.

24:12: That’s why we tell people, if the snake is biting you, don’t pull the snake off. Because A, the teeth break, the teeth will regrow on the snake. But it is painful for the snake.] Understand, even the snake has emotions, right? Just because it’s not like a mammal or a bird, it can’t speak out. It doesn’t mean it doesn’t get hurt. And, more than that, sometimes these teeth break off and they go into our skin, into our epidermis…  And then the small wound heals, but this tooth is left in our hands or feet or wherever in our body. And of course, it’s a foreign body. Imagine a foreign particle in your body now, right? So, your body slowly, slowly starts pushing it out. And, like once the tooth got stuck in my finger hand somewhere, it was when it was coming out quite naturally, it was hitting one of my veins. So, it’s really painful. You know, and then you literally have to kind of dig into it and pull it out. You know? So, sadly, all of this is sad, it happens.

25:13: But like, again, going back to your question, I’ve not been bitten by a venomous snake ever. Again, safety, (lost in translation) It does happen. I have friends who are super careful, more careful than I am.  It does happen that they have gotten bit. It’s also, you get over-complacent, you know, over-confident. You really need to be in the potential, now you know what you’re doing. You’re like, “Ah, I’ll just go and take this cobra out ……… (lost in translation). And that is bad. And that’s where this happens sadly. Right. Yeah. And we are seeing this more and more often lately.

25:47: So like when we go out looking for snakes, this is what we do. It’s called herping. We go out looking for snakes. We do holidays where we just go out to different places– maybe even abroad, or even just in India, trying to find reptiles of that age. Great.

26:04: I mean, I didn’t know snakes could grow their teeth back, but I don’t want to test that. You know, you wrote a book called Turtles, Tortoises and Terrapins of India with Sushil Chikhane. So that must have been a really interesting project. Would you like to tell us some more? And what’s the difference between the three to begin with?

Nariman Vazifdar:

26:29: So turtles.. everyone thinks when they see a shelled animal, it’s a turtle. That is the first thing that people come for. Of course, they like the book. There are three… Let’s put it this way.] Tortoises are land animals. Tortoises: are very basic distinguishing keys. Tortoises have feet because they’re land animals. Tortoises’ feet are like elephant feet, exactly like an elephant’s feet, of course, smaller. Tortoises can also swim in the water, but they can’t swim in the sea or they can’t swim in a river. A little bit, yes. Now we’ve realized that tortoises also are getting bigger. They’re getting into water bodies and floating to certain areas. But in a general aspect, tortoises are land animals. They will drown in extended periods. They cannot be swimming in the sea or in, sorry, in a pond or a lake. They will, as soon as you put them there, they will struggle a bit and they will drown.

27:28: So, elephant feet are tortoises. Turtles are two now. Turtles are freshwater turtles that live in streams, rivers, ponds, and wells. And there are marine sea turtles that live in the sea, of course. Again, these two are different as well. I cannot put a freshwater turtle in the sea. It will die. Likewise, a marine turtle cannot be put into freshwater. It will also be needed. it can survive. Yes, when you do a treatment and all, yes, you can manage to clean it out to do this. But generally, it needs to live in the sea.

Lalitha Krishnan:

Okay. Just like most river fish and sea fish.

Nariman Vazifdar:

28:10: Yeah. Exactly. River fish and marine fish. Exactly. But they are very simple distinguishing features between a freshwater turtle and a marine turtle. Freshwater turtles, in between their toes, have like a duck’s webbed feet. So they have duck-webbed feet because they need to swim in the water, right? So, their toes, in between there’s a webbing and that makes it a turtle.

28:38: A freshwater turtle, a marine turtle has completely different legs, let’s call them legs, structure. They don’t have those toes. They have fins,… flippers. Right? So as you see, it’s a very, very different structure compared to a freshwater turtle.

22:57: The third one, which everyone gets confused about, which is a terrapin, is basically a river turtle that can also survive in brackish water. Brackish water means where the mangrove area, let’s put it that way, where fresh and saltwater meet.  So some turtle species can survive in that water as well. They’re not going in the sea, but they can survive in fresh water and this brackish mangrove area.

Lalitha Krishnan:

29:24: So even in the Sundarbans and all, you’ll find them?

Nariman Vazifdar:

29:28:  Yes. Predominantly, that is correct. In the Sundarbans, there is a specific species called a Batagur baska that lives in that area. Okay

Lalitha Krishnan:

29:36: Yes. So basically, those with feet on land and the rest more or less in mostly water.

Nariman Vazifdar: Mostly water. Yes.

Lalitha Krishnan:

29:45: Thanks. Do you want to tell me more about your project, and your book?

Nariman Vazifdar:

29:52: So, the book was with me and Sushil because I did a lot of… I used to work with Turtle Survival Alliance. I worked as a freshwater turtle biologist and I understood turtles and there was a lack… Always, everyone in the reptile world is inclined towards, say, snakes, crocodiles, and lizards. Very few people are inclined towards turtles. It was the same with me as well. We found turtles boring, snow sluggish, not dangerous, just you know, like OK, whatever. But once I started doing this work I realised that wow turtles are really interesting. They have character. They have personality. They are stunning. Some of the turtles like the one I used to study were called Red-crowned roof turtles or (Batagur kachuga). It is absolutely a stunning animal. The males have yellows, reds, and blues on their faces. It looks like a lot of people have asked me when I showed them a photo of this male turtle in breeding colours. If I’ve painted this turtle.

via www.thethirdpole.net Photo by Nariman Vazifdar
Red-crowned roofed turtle

30:54 It is that vibrant, you know, and a very cool animal. The ecology of turtles, especially river turtles is something else and some of them are giants, like serious giants and just tough to catch. Because, we used to put transmitters, you know, a lot of stuff we had permits for. Sometimes they are tougher to catch than snakes, you know, more tough, you know. So, like we always thought turtles or sluggish. Everyone thinks turtles are sluggish. But when some of those turtles want to go, they are going and you cannot stop them. Yeah, it is mad. It is a very, very interesting area to live in and to understand how this works. So, there was no book like a field guide. You know there’s always field guides for say, birds to snakes. But again, like I said because turtles are this topic of “No, it’s OK, not many people interested,” we thought it is the need of the hour to have a turtle book out there you know. And there are books, there are flip cards but not a lot of field guides which cover even marine species. So yes, it took some time. We did this during COVID, and it took about a year and a half to two years to basically complete this book.

Lalitha Krishnan:

32:11: Fantastic

Nariman Vazifdar:

32:12: It was a fun learning experience as well of course.

Lalitha Krishnan:

32:13 Well, Narman, we are down to question 9. And so, I was wondering if you could share a little bit about the Bulletwood Tree that you know showed us in that forest by the beach. It was just so beautiful. Would you like to give us some information about that? I’m so fascinated.

Nariman Vazifdar:

32:40: Oh certainly. So, the bullet wood tree is a predominant tree of the Andamans. It is called Sea-mahua. It is not the mahua of Madhya Pradesh where you get liquor from the flowers. This is completely different. Even the scientific name is different. This is more of a littoral forest basically which means it grows by the seashore like we saw right? You see the giant trees in the sand. These trees could be 5/600 800 years old, extremely hardwood trees. So when we walk through the forest of Havelock or any of the Andaman Islands, you are noticing a lack of termite mounds. There are termite mounds of course, but a lack of termite mounds considering the fact that this is a rainforest. It’s not a rainforest like say the Western guards of India or South America. But nevertheless, it’s still a rainforest and these trees are very tall like we saw 130- 150 feet tall trees.

33:44 Few termite mounds because the termites can’t fully make holes in these trees. It is very interesting. Forget the living trees; we get cyclonic weather, trees rot, trees fall down. The termites we have noticed… Yes of course they try getting onto the trees. They do get onto the trees but they give up and they go away. I feel that this wood is too hard for the termites to make holes. We get another insect called the wood borer. Yes, that sometimes makes holes, but it is also found in Madhya Pradesh, but not like the damage it does to the sal trees of Madhya Pradesh where it kills the trees. It doesn’t manage it. Maybe it eats into the other trees, which is OK; the coconuts, the supari trees, you know? But I think the hardwood trees of the Andamans are something else.

34:37:  Here, there is also a wood called superior wood. You know like we were taught of hard softwood hardwood. There is superior wood you know which is extremely hard where you can’t put a nail into it at times easily you know. So even the sea-mahua or the bullet wood which is called, initially they would burn the base and cut it with an axe. Now they use a chainsaw. The chain saw takes a couple of hours to cut a tree you know? It is incredible. But also, I read somewhere that when the British … the tribes… of course the history of the Andaman, sadly is not nice. It is very you know…  a lot of unfortunate events that led to the British being here, or them treating the tribes very ruthlessly. Japan was here. The same kind of history again repeated itself. But interestingly the tribes had laid a trap for the British and someone told the British about this trap. If the tribes imagine if the tribals had won this battle against the British we may not have been here right now, right?

35:44: History would have been different, yeah. But apparently, they made shields out of this wood. I think I read some of the old books somewhere. They made shields out of the tree and they thought that it would stop bullets. Of course, it can’t stop bullets. It can’t stop cannonballs. So, the tribe literally got decimated in this action. But interestingly, it could also be called the Andaman Bullet Wood because they thought that it could stop bullets.

Lalitha Krishnan:

36:11: Having seen the tree I am in awe of it.

Nariman Vazifdar: 

36:15: Yeah.

Lalitha Krishnan:

36:18: Nariman my last question to you and I ask this of all, my guests is, do you mind sharing a word or a concept or you know, that will help us that’ll add to our understanding of the ecology of the Andaman Islands.

Nariman Vazifdar: 

36:34: Yeah, so like it’s the same thing. Like not just the just let’s say that’s not the Andaman Islands. The change happens in islands, not just with the flora, but with the fauna happening at a faster rate than in mainland any larger space, right? So, let’s just put it like I said, the problem with let’s say Havelock is it is a touristy island. The only source of income that the Andaman Islands as a whole has is tourism. But sadly, we don’t have sustainable tourism on the islands. There are rules, there are regulations, but again, it’s India…we don’t really follow any of these things. A lot of resorts are now claiming to be eco resorts and green resorts, but it is not possible. It is not humanly possible to have an eco-resort without, you know, damaging the environment. So, this is just like a little thing they put up, put a nice website out and say we are an eco resort and we are saving the environment. But actually, none of that exists,

37:48

Not just here but anywhere, even just say Tiger resorts right? Where everyone is claiming to be an eco-resort, it is not possible. We generate waste, we consume electricity. You know, it is not possible to have an eco-resort basically around us unless you are using solar panels, you are doing water harvesting, you know you’re putting groundwater back, you know you are not creating any waste, which is humanly not possible if you are running a property. Basically, no matter what, all the resorts, no, no resort, all the resorts will tell you all the big resorts will tell you that “we are doing eco management and waste management.” It is all just rubbish, sadly.

Lalitha Krishnan:

38:28: I can imagine.

Nariman Vazidar: Yes, of course, islands get… Now sadly, where was this? Where do you think this waste is going? Right? Island ecology gets damaged very fast. We are not seeing this race. I myself am producing waste, right?  We are cooking. I have a dog. He needs milk. It needs XYZ Right? Even myself, right? We all have to buy stuff to survive, right? So, on a small island with a population say 5000 living over here, now so many of us characters from the mainland live here permanently. Plus there are some 3-4000 tourists a day on this island.  So, if 3-4000 people plus 15,000 or 10,000 people need to eat every day, imagine the waste of 10 -15,000 people a day on 135 or 113 square kilometre island? So now we have a dumping yard, a landfill on an island, imagine? Where they’re just, we’re just burning the waste. It’s like when facilities are poor, infrastructure is poor, right? I thought that the hotels would come up, you know, take their waste back, do something. But no, sadly, no one does these things, including the big chains, Forget the small boutique resorts and the big chains do not really give a *&^. Like, the small ones are really not bothered about anything.

39:51: So this is what happens, right? Like, as a tourist, you are not seeing the impact that tourism has. Don’t get me wrong, everyone’s income depends on tourism. But there is a way of doing this where – see like in a tiger reserve right? They have only XYZ numbers.. like so many numbers of jeeps can enter. The tiger is yeah, one time had a system like that somewhere, you know where you only have so many people on an island per day. Let them stay longer– absolutely fine. But don’t have so many ferries coming in and out like groundwater. Why? What is the natural resource of an island? The freshwater we have, the fresh water is already getting depleted, right? We are seeing tankers come to Havelock already right? This is so– where I live– is a little bit low lying. The mangroves are 20 minutes away from me,

40:44: Yesterday when I came back to take a shower, I could smell the mangroves. You know, like in the kitchen, you know, it’s like that ammonia water, that nitrogen fixation that the mangroves do. You can smell it. And it’s not summer, summer. Summer just started. But now the islands are not getting a break? After COVID, all the hotels are doing this, not giving the island a break. Greed sadly has become a very big part of the islands where everyone is opening… Hotels are opening as we speak… so groundwater gets tapped, and water is getting reduced. It will become a problem later on in life, which a lot of these people are not seeing right now. Havelock is blessed. We have waterfalls, we have streams, but right now it’s all dry. There is not too much water because yeah, the water is drying out, absolutely. The waterfall which I went to last night is completely dried out. There’s no water.

Lalitha Krishnan:

41:45: That’s depressing. We don’t see all this. Thanks for opening our eyes. I have one more last question. You know, you also spoke up about diesel buses when we were there.

Nariman Vazifdar:

42:00: Yeah, so, the main grid of the island is a diesel generator. But now we have electric buses over here. So the diesel generator–they burn diesel to convert it into electricity to run the electric bus. It is the most absurd thing. This is sustainability apparently. This is what and this is just like done and like there is –no everyone here just thinking this stupid thing to do, right? So, we have local buses, you know? There are local buses, and local transportation. Why burn diesel to convert it to electricity to put it in electric buses and say that we are doing “green” or whatever the rubbish that is called? You know?

42:47: It’s like this is the thing that we are doing just for the namesake of doing it. We are lost in translation. So now, of course, there should be a bus, a charging station, a bus. You know, all these things have to be put up on the island now.

Lalitha Krishnan:

43:00: Food for thought. Lots of food for thought. Thank you so much.

Nariman Vazifdar:

43:06: My pleasure.

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Birdsong by hillside resident, the collared owlet.
Photos Credit/Courtesy: Nariman Vazifdar. Podcast cover/label design by Lalitha Krishnan

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How the Teak Tree Tilted the Course of History in India and Other Stories.

~ Lalitha Krishnan ~ Leave a comment

With Mallika Ravikumar and Nishanth Srinivas

Episode #34 Heart of Conservation podcast. Show Notes (Edited)

or listen here.
Mallika Ravikumar
Nishanth Srinivas

0:03

Lalitha Krishnan: Hey there. I am Lalitha Krishna and you are listening to episode #34 of Heart of Conservation. Today I am speaking to two plant and tree lovers, basically tree experts. I find it so fascinating to listen to folks who are passionate and knowledgeable about the things that they love. Some of the fauna we are going to discuss are everyday plants and trees we pass by or sit under or love for their fruits and flowers, but truly we barely notice or know much about them. I promise you some extraordinary insights, botanical facts, myths, history, personal stories and more, on this episode.

0:47

My guest Mallika Ravikumar is a lawyer-turned-writer. She writes about history, culture and nature and has authored over six books mostly for children including one called ‘Tracing Roots’.  She also has her own ‘YouTube’ channel called ‘Tree Talk with Mallika Ravikumar’. You’re very likely to have watched her on Instagram but you can check out more about her work on her website https://mallikaravikumar.com/

1:12

I have also been following ‘Trees of Shillong’ on Instagram which belongs to Nishanth Srinivas, my other guest.  Nishant has a Master’s degree in Biotechnology from Bangalore University and worked as a Junior Research Fellow at the Department of Molecular Reproduction, Development and Genetics at the Indian Institute of Science.  Having changed course, he is now based out of Shillong, and is working with an NGO called Conservation Initiatives. He specializes in satellite mapping and is interested in human–elephant interactions and landscape ecology. I believe Nishanth loves, doodling, graphic design, and writing and staring at tree canopies. I have a feeling that is true of both of my guests.

1:47

Mallika, and Nishanth thank you both for joining me on Heart of Conservation. I am really looking forward to your stories.

Mallika Ravikumar: Thank you, Lalitha for having me.

Nishanth Srinivas: Thank you so much for having us Lalitha.

2:02

Lalitha Krishnan: My pleasure really. To start with, why don’t you briefly tell me about the fascination for trees? Mallika, why don’t you go first?

2:12

Mallika Ravikumar: I grew up in Mumbai which as you know is a city with a lot of people, with a lot of concrete. Trees are not something you think about or associate with Mumbai. I grew up like any city person, knowing very little about trees and then I happened to shift into a place where I was surrounded by trees. I was very curious; I felt very bad that I didn’t know… I couldn’t recognize most of the trees around me. I didn’t know their names. It made me feel like something was off because I knew from what I had learnt in science and textbooks that we get our oxygen from trees. We get our food from trees. Trees are such an important part of regulating our environments so the role of trees in textbooks I was aware of, but I was not able to identify more than a handful of trees which made me feel very awkward. That started the process of making me want to learn, and enroll for field botany lessons during weekends at BNHS. I went for some field trips with botanists and ornithologists, to learn about birds and flowers and things. And, that took me down the rabbit hole and that learning process is still on. So, that’s how it all began.

Lalitha Krishnan: The learning process for all of us will keep going on I hope.  What about you Nishanth?

3:31

Nishanth Srinivas: My story is not much different from what Mallika’s story is. I am also from the city; I am from Bangalore. Just like she mentioned, trees give us oxygen. I remember when I was so concerned about the environment, reading about all of this. The thing is during summer holidays, the best most outdoorsy thing that I would get to do is go to my grandparent’s place. They had a very big garden and they were every possible fruit tree there. This started my love for gardening. It started with gardening and I took a different route. I studied biotechnology and I happened to work in the Indian Institute of Science. And there, there were more trees and they have a 400-plus acre filled with trees. And, all my free time would be spent observing trees, canopies… Eventually, somewhere, that fueled my change to a different profession and now, I’m in conservation and I actually started observing trees beyond what is there in the city. And, that’s how Trees of Shillong was born and here we are. Right.

Lalitha Krishnan: It’s amazing how the ‘outdoors’ draws us out of our shelters.  One of my podcast guests, Suniti Bhushan, introduced me to the concept, not his concept of ‘Nature Deficiency Syndrome’. Still, I would like to hear from you; why do you think tree stories are important? Nishanth, do you want to go first?

Nishanth Srinivas: Tree stories or stories in general related to myths or folk stories I believe are very important. Coming from a conservation point of view, whenever we approach a place or a region to understand what are people’s beliefs and how they connect with their culture, it usually starts with understanding or trying to make sense of their surroundings. And most of this is usually in the form of folk stories. There might be biases as conservationists so I try to bring in this idea of conservation a lot. And even in my stories when I write about Shillong, I usually end it with two lines about conservation which is very much the need of the hour. So, the thing is these stories need that. As a researcher and conservationist, they give me an understanding of the local context and how people relate to it and some sense of the relation of how they understand and make sense of the nature around them.

As a researcher and conservationist, they give me an understanding of the local context and how people relate to it and some sense of the relation of how they understand and make sense of the nature around them.

-Nishanth Srnivas

Lalitha Krishnan: So true. Mallika?

6:21

Mallika Ravikumar: Yes, very similar to what Nishanth said. In a country where we are such an ancient culture-we have such a plethora of stories and folk tales, myths, and legends about trees from various backgrounds: Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam… In every tradition, some people consider trees sacred. There is an association with them. I think, going into the psychology of it, people’s actions are not based on reason alone. Although we would like to believe we are rational, reasonable people, intelligence plays a very important role in how we behave but reason is only one of the faculties we use to make decisions. The other huge factor is emotion. Many things we do in our life–the decision to marry somebody, the decision to follow a certain career—it is based on hope and dreams and are also mixed with emotion. It’s not ‘reason’ alone that guides us. So, pummeling people with facts alone—you know, “trees give us oxygen, trees regulate the environment” — all this appeals to a certain side of us but all these legends, myths, folktales, and rituals and traditions; appeal to the emotional side of us. Which is also a very important part of human decision-making and psychology.

So, I think they have a very important role. Sometimes, I think emotions play a larger role when I connect with a tree or plant or pet dog emotionally, I feel much more to protect them and save them than if I connected with them academically or you know, intellectually. So, I think they play an important role in the way people behave in general.

8:05

Lalitha Krishnan: OK. And from a male point of view, Nishanth, do you also feel the emotional connection?

8:13

Nishanth Srinivas: Yes, very much so. The whole point of why we are very interested in learning and trying to talk about myths… is generally when we have a conservation or do a presentation, it’s to have that emotional connection. When we speak of myths and folk stories, they also reveal a lot about the culture and they trying to make sense so yes, the emotional aspect makes a very good point. It’s important.

8:33

Lalitha Krishnan: Thank you. This question is for both of you. So, how many trees are you going to share with us today?  Mallika if you would like to start, you can tell us some interesting facts that you like and then a myth.

8:57

Mallika Ravikumar: Sure, how many trees? There is no answer to that. It can go on endlessly but I would be happy to start with a tree that I talk about a lot which is the teak tree which is an Indian tree. It’s called ‘Saagaun’ in Hindi, and Thekku maram’ in the south. In fact, the word ‘Teak’ itself comes from the word Thekku maram’ which is in Malayalam, and before that in Tamil. It is a tree that changed world history. We have this human-centric way of looking at history and saying, “This king changed history, this general, Alexander the Great, Akbar the Great, Chandra Gupta Maurya; they did this…and they changed history…” But really, so many of these trees if they could speak, would tell you that they are the ones who changed history and changed the course of time. So, teak is one of those trees you know.

But really, so many of these trees if they could speak, would tell you that they are the ones who changed history and changed the course of time. So, teak is one of those trees you know.

-Mallika Ravikumar

9:45

There is this period in history in the 16th and 17th centuries that was called the period of Teak Rush, which was a time when the French and the British were engaged in several battles before and during Napolean’s time when the British were very wary of the rise of Napolean because he was a big threat. And, they had completely decimated the oak trees of England to build ships. And we all know the British were able to control a large part of the world because they had a great navy. And what was the basis of their navy? Their ships. And what were their ships made of? Wood. But their oak forests were completely decimated because of the ships they had built in conquering various places and they were on the lookout for wood to build their ships. That is when this period of Teak Rush comes in when both the French and the British are on the lookout for wood for building ships. Because all these battles that used to happen were naval battles. And by chance, it is the British who discovered the teak forests of southern India and then they brought in forest laws to control all our forests. The conservation laws that we have today didn’t start as a measure of protecting the forest as much as wanting to control the resources from the forest.

And what is the main resource they wanted to control? Teak. They had scouts going out to look out for these teak forests. They massacred these forests, they had teak plantations, they converted large forest areas into monoculture teak plantations and it is the teak that they got that helped them get this hegemony and control larger parts of the world. So, it titled the scale of history. We are having this conversation in English today because of teak otherwise we might have been talking in French. Who knows? But it’s teak that changed the tide that was the bedrock of the British empire. So, that’s just one of the many stories that changed our past and continue to shape our present.

11:37

Lalitha Krishnan: That’s amazing. Frankly, I did not know of this. I have only heard of the Gold Rush, not the Teak Rush. Nishanth, what plant, or tree are you bringing home to our listeners?

11:41

Nishanth Srinivas: Well, I thought of four plants but one tree which is very common to our listeners which we all know; it is very common is the coconut. I have always been intrigued; there was a coconut tree near my home in Bangalore, in my neighbour’s house and it stood tall. In 2018 we had very terrible rains; very cyclonic. There were a couple of trees which fell but this one tree did not fall. You do not hear of many instances of coconut trees falling and if you follow the weather channels you will always see that when they talk about coasts or rain in the weather reports, you will always see some palm trees flaying around but it’s not usually uprooting away. I always used to think about why and it is very interesting how coconut trees have adapted to live in a coastal region where geographically, it is quite flat. We know that when the winds come in, they pick up rain, and the first thing they will encounter is the coast. So, how these trees have adapted is quite interesting.

13:00

First of all, the shape of a coconut tree is a tube-like any other palm tree. And if you observe the bottom of the tree, it is a little wider at the bottom than the top. Very marginally. And, the top region of the tree, the crown as we call it is quite flexible. That is one. We have all seen Bahubali (the movie) where he uses the palm tree to make it so flexible that it is wind-borne and things like that. Though, palm trees are not that flexible but the top region is. So, it sways when there is a lot of wind movement. That is one.

13:39

When we talk about the inside structure of the coconut tree… it is a monocot. Monocot trees do not grow by girth every year and it’s made up of spongy tissue inside. It is so much like a concrete mould and is reinforced by lignin fibres. These fibres run longitudinally along the length of the coconut trees so they are fill which is inside the concrete. It provides structural stability to the tree. That is one.

14:11

The other is the roots. We have all seen the roots. These roots are fibrous. They go in every direction and they hold the tree in a place like any other (root system).

14:25

Last but not the least is the frond. So, the coconut tree is almost feather-like; it is pinnate. So, it has a central big stem called the Rachis. So, most of the very tall palm trees have feather-like leaves. So, these are some of the very interesting adaptions that I came across when I was trying to understand how the coconut tree stands cyclones.

14:51

Lalitha Krishnan: Wow. You explained that well. I also believe every part of the coconut tree can be used. Am I right?

15:00

Nishanth Srinivas: That’s true. That’s one of the reasons why it is called ‘Kalpavriksha’ I guess. Mallika would have many more stories about it. But interestingly, since coconut trees are there in the tropical regions all around, there are multiple stories of ‘how’ or ‘what’ when it comes to the folk stories. Each culture or region has its own take on it. It is quite interesting.

15:25

Lalitha Krishnan: O.K. Would you like to share that?

15:30

Nishanth Srinivas: I will quickly share two of them. One of them is from Hindu mythology itself. When Ganesh was very small, he wanted to play with the third eye of Shiva. And then, I guess, one of the demons if I am not mistaken a small model/idol with three eyes and gives it to Ganesh. By mistake, this small idol falls from Ganesh’s hands and falls on earth. They say that’s how coconut came into existence or how mankind found the coconut.

16:04

That is one of the stories. There is one more very interesting story—again similar to this—the three eyes. When you de-husk a coconut, why does it have three eyes? This story is from the Polynesian culture- Hawaii, Melanesia, New Zealand and all of those places.  They say, in an ancient island there used to be a chieftain’s daughter. Her name was Sina. She used to always visit the sea and she sort of became friends with an eel. This eel over time developed feelings for Sina. And it became very violent as time moved on; wanting more of her time and affection. But then, she goes back to her village and complains about this eel which is sort of always stalking her. And then, one of her relatives goes and kills the eel. Before dying, the eel’s head speaks. It tells Sina to bury the head in the sand and that it will be reborn as a tree whose fruit Sina can drink. The three holes are where the coconut shell is the lightest. So, every time, you break it open and drink, it’s like the eel kissing Sina. That’s what the story says. These are different stories and they talk about (lost in translation).

17:30

Lalitha Krishnan: Lovely stories. Mallika, would you like to share another one?

17:33

Mallika Ravikumar: Sure, I can talk about a plant which is not a tree but a lot of people think it is a tree which is the Banana. You know, in usual parlance, we say banana tree or kela ka jaad or vāḻai maram in Tamil. Botanically, it is not a tree and the reason is- for a plant to be considered a tree, the key feature is the wooden trunk. And the banana, if you notice closely, does not have a wooden trunk so it is not botanically a tree, although we all call it a tree.

Botanically, it is not a tree and the reason is- for a plant to be considered a tree, the key feature is the wooden trunk. And the banana, if you notice closely, does not have a wooden trunk so it is not botanically a tree, although we all call it a tree.

-Mallika Ravikumar

18:03

There’s this interesting story from the Gadabas tribe of Odisha which I like very much. So, the story goes that there were five sisters. They were the mango, the tamarind, the fig, the jamun and the banana. As they were growing older, their father was getting worried that they weren’t getting married and he wanted to find husbands for each of them. So, he asked them what kind of husbands they wanted and they all told him. And, he looked for such partners for them but the banana said, “I want children but I don’t want a husband.” This is a very modern, feminist sort of story so I like it for many reasons. She said, “I want children but I am very clear I don’t want a husband.” So, the father grew worried. “How is this going to work?” But the other girls got married and they had children and it is said that all the mango and fig, tamarind and jamun trees that we have are descendants of those children. But then what about the banana? She said, “I don’t want to marry but I want children.”

19:00

The thing is as per the story the banana had children without a husband. The beautiful thing about this story is that bananas reproduce parthenogenetically which is asexual reproduction. In botanical terms, if one were to study that there are two forms of reproduction: one is sexual, and one is asexual; the way the banana reproduces by bypassing the fertilization of the ovule by the pollen is sexual reproduction. And it is fascinating to see that this ancient folktale has captured that in such a simple way. Those daughters wanting to marry and one daughter saying, “I want children but I don’t want a husband.” And to see that very astute scientific observation finds reflection in this folktale. So, I find it very fascinating for many reasons including the fact that it’s a sort of modern, feminist sort of take on life. But, yeah, this is a fascinating story about the banana that I shared on my YouTube channel where I share these sorts of stories that I find.

20:02

Lalitha Krishnan: Fascinating. I agree with you. How on earth did they figure it out then? Nishanth, it’s your turn. Another tree, another plant?

20:10

Nishanth Srinivas: One more tree that is quite common in Bangalore gardens is Nyctanthes arbor-tristis. It’s called parijata. It’s also called night jasmine though it does not belong to the Jasmine family. Again, according to legend, what happens is this tree also comes from the churning of the milky ocean. The demons and the gods churn up the mountain. And then, from the ocean arises this tree and Indraloka who plants it in his garden. Once, Narada,–who is usually a mischief-monger—takes some of the flowers from Indira’s garden and gives them to Krishna. And, Krishna goes and gives it to Rukmini, his wife. Having known this Narada being Narada, he goes and tells Krishna’s other wife, Satyabhama, that Rukmini got these heavenly flowers and Satyabhama becomes quite jealous. So then, she asks for the whole tree and so Krishna goes and steals the tree. En route, when he is coming with the tree, he is confronted by Indra and a battle ensues. Eventually what happens is Indra curses the tree such that it never produces fruit. Interestingly, this parijata does not produce fruit. It belongs to the Oleaceae family. It produces a heart-shaped capsule. Oleaceae is the olive family- the olive fruit. So, this does not produce that. It just produces the capsule. And, this is a little bit of humour: he (Indra) says that the owners where this plant is will never get the flowers. What I have observed is that in Bangalore morning time, around 6:00 or 7:00 o’clock, you see all these people coming to pick these flowers and usually the flower never falls in the garden where it is planted but usually falls on the roadside. ( lost in translation )These are some of the things that I find nice. Also, it brings the thought –as we discussed- we don’t know what came first. This or that but it is people trying to make sense of what they observe in nature and putting it into some sort of context.

22:55

Lalitha Krishnan: Very interesting. I can relate to this. I never get any of the fruits or flowers that I plant. They all go mostly to the monkeys. But I don’t feel cursed. I feel privileged. I think it’s the tax one pays for having wildlife around. Mallika, what next?

22:17

 Mallika Ravikumar: The story that Nishanth related…I had a parijat growing in my house and it was exactly like that. The plant was on one side of the fence and the flowers were falling on the building on the other side of the fence. That story also has another element. You know when he brings back the tree, Rukmani is very upset and says, “Why did you give Satyabhama the tree?” So, Krishna being very smart, plants it in a way that Satyabhama is happy to have the tree but the flowers come to Rukmani’s side of the garden because he knew that then both his wives were happy. These folk stories have several narratives or variations. So, that’s also very interesting that someone has heard one part and you hear another part. This is a version of the story that I had heard but yes, it’s a beautiful tree and flowers and a lovely story also.

These folk stories have several narratives or variations. So, that’s also very interesting that someone has heard one part and you hear another part.

– Mallika Ravikumar

24:12

Another tree with lovely flowers that I can think of is the silk cotton tree- the semal. This story comes from the Mahabharat. This story is narrated by Bhishma when he is on his bed of arrows; when he is about to die all the others come around him, asking for advice and ask various questions. He narrates this story when he is asked about the qualities of a good king. How must a king behave when a neighbouring king is stronger than him?  What is the diplomacy and relations one must have? So, he narrates this story of the silk cotton tree.

Nishanth mentioned Narada so this story struck me. Narad Muni, as he said was a troublemaker. He is walking along a forest and he comes upon this beautiful silk cotton tree and he is absolutely stunned. He says, “You know, you are so gorgeous and your flowers are so beautiful, how is it that you are still standing like this? “The wind is blowing so hard over here; all the trees are bent; all the leaves have fallen because Vayu has blown with such force but you seem to be unaffected by Vayu’s force. How is it possible? So, the silk cotton replies saying, “You know Vayu may be strong for the others but I am stronger than Vayu and what do you think? I can’t bear the brunt of the breeze?” So, he boasts about how strong he is and Narada is sure that if the wind really wants to blow something down, nobody can stand in its way so he being a troublemaker, goes back to Vayu and says, “ You know there is this proud silk cotton tree in the forest who thinks it is stronger than you and I find it laughable.”

Vayu of course says, “That’s ridiculous. I spared the silk cotton tree because when Brahma created the world, he rested under this tree and therefore, I have respect for this tree and therefore I don’t blow on it. But, if the silk cotton tree is going to interpret this as my weakness, let me show him how strong I am.

26:04

He says, “I’ll show him how strong I am tomorrow. But that night, the silk cotton thinks and reflects and looks at all the trees around and thinks, “If all these trees are bent and turned over, and leaves have fallen and they are all facing Vayu’s impact, surely it can’t be that I am so strong that I am stronger than Vayu.” So that night, the silk cotton tree decides that before Vayu comes, let me myself, drop my leaves and flowers so that when Vayu comes tomorrow, he cannot inflict any damage on me. So, the next day, when Vayu comes blowing fiercely down the mountainside, the silk cotton has nothing left. No leaves or flowers. Nothing is left on the branches. He says, “I am glad that you learnt the lesson to be humble. Now shorn out of your beauty, you have realized that you don’t need to show off many times. People are being gracious and nice to you and it’s not all about how strong you are.” So Bhisma is narrating this story to say that you have to accept that someone is stronger than you and not be futile and say, “I can take on anyone.” If your neighbouring king is stronger than you, then accept and be humble and bow before him. That was the context of the story.

27:17

But I use this story when I take children out for tree walks to tell them about leaves falling. And, why some trees are deciduous and some trees are evergreen and have you noticed leaves falling? So, if you just start off with deciduous and evergreen, kids sort of get put off. But if you start with a story, it becomes a point of generating curiosity and then they start noticing which trees around them are dropping leaves. Some kids have come back to me and said, “Aunty, we remembered this story from the Mahabharat when you told us when we saw this tree outside our school which was dropping leaves. So the important thing is also to connect kids with trees around them because it’s a way to generate curiosity.

27:56

Lalitha Krishnan: wonderful. I am feeling like a kid listening to your stories. Nishanth, why don’t you tell us more? What’s your next tree or plant of choice?

28:08

Nishanth Srinivas: The next is a plant, a type of ginger and this takes forward what Mallika said. Some of these stories and myths also serve a purpose to teach kids or the younger generation something. There is some moral behind it. This story is about a type of rock ginger. Rock gingers have very showy flowers and they are quite common in the Himalayan region. It’s called butterfly-ginger, butterfly rock ginger- it’s got different names but they have very showy flowers and they are quite common in and around the Himalayan region. This particular plant, its scientific name is Hedychium gardenarium.

Since I work in Meghalaya, this is one story which came to me from one of the museums that I visited here. So, they have this plant and they have this story along with it. so, in Khasi, this plant is called Ka tiew lalyngi. ‘Lalyngi’ which I understand must be the name and ‘tiew’ is flower. There is a saying, “Wat long tiew lalyngi pepshad” which roughly translates to: “Do not be late like the Lalyngi flower who missed the dance.”

29: 31

So, the story goes that there was a great feast. There was a huge tree called the lei tree. I am sure I am pronouncing these things wrong but if someone knows the correct pronunciation, please get back to me. This large tree was blocking out the sunlight and that itself is a different story. Eventually what happens is that people cut it down and there is sunlight again in the land and there is a celebration that happens. So, to celebrate, all the creatures that is animals, people, birds, and insects were invited to a great dance in the region of Meghalaya. So, what happens is there’s also this girl who is invited. Her name is Lalyngi. She’s a very beautiful young girl and she happens to come.  But the thing is she wants to look the best. What she does is she takes a lot of time to get ready. In that process of getting reading, she loses track of time. So, by the time, she reaches the dance arena, she finds the event is already over and she is quite upset by it. Because nobody is there to see her after all the effort she took. She is so upset she jumps off the cliff and dies. Where she dies, a flower is born and that flower is the Hedychium gardenarium.

The thing is, this flower is so much part of the culture. If you have seen the Khasi dress, they wear these Paila beads which are mostly in shades of golden yellow and red. And, this flower has stamens which are of the same hue of red. And the petals are yellow. In some sense, they feel it is part of their folk story. Most of these stories are oral; part of the oral tradition they have here in Meghalaya. Stories that are passed on through generations; something which they feel is one of their own which tells something about their culture. And, interprets some sort of moral lesson to children to prioritize and give importance to things when they are doing something.

Stories that are passed on through generations; something which they feel is one of their own which tells something about their culture. And, interprets some sort of moral lesson to children to prioritize and give importance to things when they are doing something.

-Niahanth Srinivas

32:12

Lalitha Krishnan: Wow. That’s a sad but beautiful story but also such an exotic flower.

32:21

Nishanth Srinivas: It is. Google it and see.

32:28

Lalitha Krishnan: Mallika, would you like to share another story or plant if you like?

32:33

Mallika Ravikumar: Another commonly seen tree in India is the Neem. This is not a story that comes from myths or folk legends. It’s a historical, current affairs kind of story. Where, as we all know, the neem has been traditional medicine in India for centuries. From ancient times to now, we have all experienced how if you had chickenpox, were told to have a bath in neem-leaf water or brush yourself with neem branches to heal.

33:10

Generally, if there’s a neem tree around you, one considers mosquitoes won’t come into your house. Neem is just part of growing up in India. You keep hearing the healing properties of neem. Some decades ago, in the US this company was granted a patent for the use of the neem in their pesticides or herbicides for controlling pests in plants. And, they also applied for a patent in the European patent office and fortunately, this was highlighted and India opposed that.  The Indian Council of Scientific Research opposed that and this is Traditional Knowledge. A patent as we all know is a special right given to you if you have invested in researching something and you have come up with something very novel, and it is original and it’s of use to people. Those are the considerations for a patent. But here is someone asking for a patent for something that was commonly known. Haldi is another one. Basmati, as we know, we also got a patent some time back. So many Indian plants, some of them medicinal whose healing properties have been common knowledge—even illiterate, uneducated—everybody in India knows about the healing properties of these plants. You don’t need to be a doctor or anything.

34:17

And, you get a patent for that where you are claiming that you have something original and useful and novel was something that India opposed and that patent was finally revoked after a lot of appeals and several processes. What it highlighted was something called Biopiracy. Piracy we know that if you film a movie in a theatre and you release it and make money out of it, is called a pirated copy of the movie or a book. Because it is making money out of somebody else’s creativity without giving them their due.

34:50

But, this idea of bio-piracy became a taking point after this Indian Neem incident of biopiracy and India then woke up to the fact—even till now, several of the patent applications made by pharmaceutical companies in the West are based on traditional knowledge of ancient cultures including India. And then fortunately this was taken to serious levels. There was this body called the Indian Traditional Knowledge Systems and a database was formed where if someone in the US applies for a patent for, let’s say haldi, obviously they might know this is traditional knowledge in India… But the Patent Office can then search in this database where you have all these plants that have been recorded as traditional healing plants in unani, ayurveda, siddha etc. and it will show up in the search at the patent office. At least in the future, private enterprises will not given rights– exclusive rights—for traditional healing plants of common knowledge in India. It all began with the neem biopiracy case that triggered all this. That’s not a legend or a myth but an interesting story, especially something to be aware of this is a huge amount of traditional knowledge that we are sitting on and some people are using it for private gain. We should be aware of it.

36:14

Lalitha Krishnan: Very true. And biopiracy is a new one for me. And I doubt they are trying to get patents for anything innocently.

36:28

Mallika Ravikumar: Absolutely. There was a very interesting article that I read. In Covid times, a lot of plants were getting stolen out of our botanical gardens. Orchids. Nishanth is in the north-east. He will know better. Orchids are disappearing in the northeast. Some of them are threatened species because there is this craze for owning these exotic plants and keeping them in your gardens and your house. The West has always had this craze but even today it is there. We talk about the tiger and the elephants and big mammals, birds etc. when they are threatened but a large number of species on the IUCN list are actually plants. Many of them are Indian plants. We somehow don’t highlight them because they are not as dramatic as the tiger and elephant and so on. But they are also part of threatened species.

We talk about the tiger and the elephants and big mammals, birds etc. when they are threatened but a large number of species on the IUCN list are actually plants.

-Mallika Ravikumar

37:14

Lalitha Krishnan: Butterflies too…from the northeast. Thanks for sharing that, Mallika. Nishanth, would you share some more?

37:21

Nishanth Srinivas: Yes. Mallika has given me segways into different things… She mentions the US and how plants are collected and taken to different places. One very common plant which was reversed from the New World to the Old World is scientifically known as Euphorbia pulcherrima. It’scommonly known as the Christmas flower. It’s these red bracts; it’s almost like bougainvillaea. It usually flowers during Christmas time. I’m sure both of you are familiar with seeing this plant. It’s very common. Especially in the western ghats, it’s grown as a hedge around coffee plantations etc. Here in Shillong, it’s quite a common garden plant.

38:14

Though this plant is a showy ornamental plant, it’s got a very nice and interesting story. And, it highlights something which I shall share at the end. It’s also commonly known as the poinsettia. The thing is even the names: Why poinsettia? Why Christmas flowers? It has a nice big story to it. This plant is native to the dry forests of Mexico, basically central and northern South America.

38:50

During the Aztec civilization time, this was also a plant of high cultural importance.  In Aztec, it was known as cuetlaxochitl which translates to ‘a mortal flower that perishes and withers but is all pure. Apparently, in Aztec legend when it was formed it was white. And, because of the war between two different tribes, the flowers become red.

39: 26

So, the Aztecs would plant this around their habitations or wherever they had their cities and stuff. But we know a little bit about their history and how the Europeans started coming and colonizing the West. So, what happens is, that when the people/missionaries came into the region in the 17th century, they noticed these plants. They sort of took this aspect of how important this plant was and made it part of the Christian culture. How they did this is quite interesting.

40:10

There is one interesting story. In Spanish, this flower is called Flor de Nochebuena which translates to “flower of the Christmas eve.’ The story is all about a girl named Pepita. I am sure you’ll be aware that during Christmas time, they make a manger which is a model of the birth of Jesus/ nativity scene. This girl comes from a very modest background. The story goes that all the people go to the church to offer something to baby Jesus. Everybody is trying to get the best thing to give as an offering. Being of a modest background, she tries her hand at many things. She tries to knit a shawl but she can’t untangle the wool. She then tries to make small boots for baby Jesus but she doesn’t even have the strength to push the needle through the leather.

41:29

She gets quite upset and a stranger comes up to her and tells the young Pepita, “Even if you offer anything with a lot of devotion, it will be accepted.” So, she goes around and gathers a bunch of leaves and twigs and she offers them at the church.  What happens is, magically over time, these greens she has picked, turn red.  This also goes back to the plant as I was saying. They are not flowers but like bougainvillea, they are red bracts. The flowers themselves are quite small. The story weaves the aspect of those and also them coming into flower during winter time around Christmas. That is what I found interesting; it gives a reference point. Some of these myths and stories may stay but this is how some aspects get introduced and become one of their own. So, that was what this story represents to me.

42:45

The word ‘poinsettia’ is also quite interesting. Mallika mentioned how people collect plants. There was a person called Joel Roberts Poinsett who was very much into collecting plants. He was from the US and was working as an ambassador to Mexico sometime in the early 19Th century. When he was there he collected these plants and sent them to the botanical gardens. In honour of him having introduced this to the western plant per se, it got the name, poinsettia. In political terminology, there is a term called poinsettismo which represents a kind of diplomacy which the US follows. Which is very intrusive. It represents how the US is or functions with other countries which they trade with.  This tells us also how words are derived, how there are stories are attached to them and what the roots of the stories are. This is an example of a plant being behind one such name.

44:09

Lalitha Krishnan: Thank you.

44:19

Mallika Ravikumar: I was about to say, I learnt a new word. Poinsettismo. I am going to look it up and read more about it.

44: 27

Lalitha Krishnan: The association is still there. I remember 2 Christmases ago; I gifted a poinsettia to someone.

44:36

Nishanth Srinivas: It all came from one small town in Mexico and got sent to the Philadelphia Botanical Society and from there, if I am not mistaken, just one company had world domination. And, they sent this poinsettia to different parts of the world. So, all of them probably have one or two mother plants if I am not mistaken. That’s how it is.

45:09

Lalitha Krishnan: Thank you so much. My last question to you both—and I feel almost guilty asking you this question—because both of you have already introduced so many new concepts and words but I am going to ask anyway cos this is how I always end my podcast.

Could you share something about trees or plants that is new to us or significant to you in some way?   It could even be about your relationship with plants.      

43:35

Mallika Ravikumar: Before that, can I add to something that Nishanth said which reminded me of something else?

45:40

Lalitha Krishnan: Of course:

45: 42

Mallika Ravikumar: Nishanth said how beautifully the idea was told to the girl: “You offer something with devotion and that is the most important thing”. There is a mirror story of that even here. That is one of the stories that I thought I could narrate but we don’t have time. This is the popular story of Shabri and the ber—the Indian jujube—where you have, shabri picking ber fruits from the tree and offering them to Ram. It comes from the Odhiya Ramayan. It’s not in Valmiki’s Ramayan. And, that became a very important story in the Bhakti movement to cut across barriers of caste and varna… In the Odhiya Ramayan, he accepts this jhutey ber as they say. She has tasted the ber, tasted the fruit to see if they are sweet and gives it to Ram. Laxman says, “I cannot eat this but Ram says, “Anything offered to me with love and devotion is acceptable and nobody is small or lesser or greater and I will take anything that is given to me with love and devotion. That is exactly the mirror story of what he mentioned. So, in every country, or culture, I guess you have such stories and it is really beautiful to study these parallels. Even in the Bhagvat Geeta, you have a slok/verse which is exactly that. “Patram pushpam phalam toyam, yo me bhaktya prayaschati” (You offer me fruit, you offer me flowers, you give me anything. As long as you give it with devotion, I will take it.)

It’s beautiful though and very often those offerings are plants and fruits and flowers which is a form of expressing devotion to whichever divine power that you worship.

47:16

Lalitha Krishnan: I am getting goosebumps. Between you guys, you can start an Oral History of Plants podcast. There are too many stories to go on one episode.

47:30

Nishanth Srinivas: There are a lot more.

47:31

Lalitha Krishnan: I think it will be amazing to have an encyclopedia of stories. So, coming back to my question…

47:45

Nishanth Srinivas: One word which comes to mind and which is central to… the reason why I am here also is ‘Green blindness’. People do not see green things. What captures our imagination is things which move—animals, birds, insects. They come to mind very fast but when we talk about plants, a common person may speak of plants in respect of their utility. In respect to food, or in respect to being ornament like a flower. But plants are much more. They are the reason why we are here. Somewhere when it comes to the topic of conservation, as Mallika initially spoke of the British way of forest management, it’s mostly utilitarian purpose. They wanted something which they wanted to extract and that is something which is continuing even today. Even with many forest departments, there have been many instances of people razing down natural forests, razing down places of high diversity and putting down monocultures of teak and mahogany and things like that. There are many examples like that that keep happening. With different forest laws and policies and amendments; time is progressing least in the Indian context, what is happening is not going for the good. In some ways, it is going for the bad because we are also an aspiring nation. We want to develop and be a superpower. We always see this happening in the spectrum of life but the conservation of our natural resources, our trees, what is natural per se, is much more important. Usually, the first thing that gets chopped or which gets the axe is always the tree. When there is any development even in our cities, when there is road broadening or widening, or setting up an economic zone or trying to expand business, anything that relates to land, it is usually the plants and trees which suffer first. Because they can’t move. They will be lost if they are removed from a region.

Usually, the first thing that gets chopped or which gets the axe is always the tree. When there is any development even in our cities, when there is road broadening or widening, or setting up an economic zone or trying to expand business, anything that relates to land, it is usually the plants and trees which suffer first. Because they can’t move. They will be lost if they are removed from a region.

-Nishanth Srinivas

50:40

Green Blindness is also one of the reasons why I started writing about plants though I do not come from a background of botany. So, that is something that I believe people should keep in mind and be more cognizant of what is green around them and living.

50:55

Lalitha Krishnan: So true. And where can we read your writings?

50:59

Nishanth Srinivas: I’m on Instagram @treesofshillong Otherwise, very much like you, write for magazines like #RoundGlassSustain I saw you had an article about how ants carry flowers so… different things. I also write to the Meghalayan. I have been writing about plants: myths and trees that are very common in Shillong gardens.

51:36

Lalitha Krishnan: Do share these links for my blog. Okay, Mallika; what would you like to share?

51:43

Mallika Ravikumar: Okay. While there are many ideas and words, something I noticed before I started learning about trees, I noticed that when I used to walk, I used to like looking up at the canopies of the trees from below and the reflection and the play of light. I discovered much later, that there is a word in Japanese, for this phenomenon and it is called Komorebi. I was so happy to discover that there was a word for this. Because, sometimes you observe or have certain experiences and you don’t have a word to explain what it is you are experiencing. But I was delighted to know that there was a word for this light filtering through the canopy of trees and the way you see it from below is called Komorebi in Japanese. So that’s a very wonderful idea and concept.

52:31

And going from that, another associated term called ‘crown shyness’.  What is fascinating is—again when I tell children or tell adults about it—if you’re walking below trees—say on the road and there are trees on both sides of the road, if you look up, you will notice the canopy of the trees are meeting up but just about. They touch each other but there is a slight gap between them. Not all trees do this but it is observed in many places and this is called ‘crown shyness’ where the crowns of the trees just stay within touching distance of each other. The reason of course is because they both want sunlight and if one covers the other one, the other one is not going to get sunlight. So, the tree is not going to grow under the shade of the other. There is a reason of course for it but we call it “crown shyness’ and it is very easy to observe when you’re out for a walk. Just look up. There are two beautiful things you can see. Light -whether daylight or moonlight –whatever it is, it’s filtering through these trees and it’s a beautiful Japanese word called Komorebi and this concept of crown shyness which you notice. It almost looks like the trees are having a conversation but they don’t want to be touching each other they are just about touching. That’s a beautiful thing to see and anybody can observe that when they are walking under trees.

53:46

Lalitha Krishnan: It’s like they are being good neighbours, right? Not getting into each other’s space that much.

53:53

Mallika Ravikumar: Live and let live…

53:55

Lalitha Krishnan:  Exactly. And the Japanese word? Is it the same for forest bathing?

54:00

 Mallika Ravikumar: No, Shinrin-yoku I think. Forest bathing is where you soak in the sounds smells and sights of a forest, and you spend time there. That is also a very beautiful Japanese idea as well. But this is Komorebi which is light filtering in through the canopy, through the leaves. The leaves are moving in the breeze, so the light is playing and dancing around. That idea is called Komorebi.  It is also very beautiful to have a word for it.

54:25

Lalitha Krishnan: It paints such a pretty picture. That’s fantastic. Thank you both so much. It was wonderful

54:35

Mallika Ravikumar: it was wonderful being here and chatting and connecting with Nishanth and you; both of you.

54:37

Nishanth Srinivas: Yes, same here. It was very nice to hear about new things and learn and put forth…

Disclaimer: Views, thoughts, and opinions expressed in the podcast and show notes belong solely to the guest/guests featured in the episode, and not necessarily to the host of this podcast/blog or the guest’s employer, organization, committee or other group or individual

Know Your Dugong. A High Priority Species Like the Tiger.

Dugong photo by Darius Quadros
~ Lalitha Krishnan ~ Leave a comment

Ep#32 Heart of Conservation Podcast Show Notes (Edited)

00:00

Audio: Collared owlet 

00:09

Hi I’m Lalitha Krishnan and you’re listening to episode #32 of Heart of Conservation. You can listen to Heart of Conservation on several platforms but you can also always read the transcript right here, on my blog Earthy Matters. Today we are going to be talking about an animal that is an old relative of the elephant but it lives in water. I’m talking about the Dugong spelt ‘Dugong’. It’s also a cousin of the manatee. The dugong is a marine mammal that once lived in large numbers in Indian coastal waters and yet we know very little about it.

I am very excited to be speaking to not one but three amazing researchers Prachi Sachchidanand Hatkar, Chinmaya Ghanekar and Swapnali Gole about their work with Dugongs and their habitats.

Prachi Sachchidanand Hatkar is a PhD Scholar, Project Fellow- CAMPA Recovery of Dugongs and their habitats in India at WII. Currently, she is working on seagrass-associated fauna in the gulf of Kutch and Gujarat. Chinmaya is a wildlife biologist and certified scuba diver. She is currently working on projects involving seagrass, fish, dugongs and their threats under ‘CAMPA Recovery of Dugongs and their habitats in India.’ She is pursuing a Ph.D. in seagrass-associated fish and works in the Gulf of Mannar and Palk Bay region.

Swapnali Gole is a marine researcher and a National Geographic Explorer. Affiliated with WII, she has been working on the insular population of dugongs in the Andaman and Nicobar Islands, India, for the last seven years.  Between the three of them they have all the dugong habitats of India covered, I think. 

A special thank you to Dr Dr. J. A.Johnson, Scientist and faculty at Wildlife Institute of India and also Head of Department of Habitat Ecology for facilitating this conversation. And for the lovely ladies on my screen, welcome and thank you all for joining me.

2:14

Lalitha Krishnan: Swapnali do you want to start with what are dugongs? 

2:18

Swapnali Gole: When I start introducing dugongs, what I have experienced is that there is a big question mark on everybody’s face. “Do you want to say ‘Dolphin’? Are you talking about some whale species?” Generally, we are always bombarded or greeted with these kinds of reactions. Dugong is a very simple elusive animal which is a marine mammal species. A marine mammal is an animal that lives its life in the sea–of course there are variations–there are some marine mammals that live partly in the sea and partly on land but dugongs are exclusively marine mammals which means right from when they are born to the time they die, they spend their entire life cycle in the sea. And, they are just like dolphins and whales; also, marine mammals.  But they are more popularly known compared to dugongs. 

Dugongs are also more popularly known as sea cows; the reason being the dugong is the only exclusively herbivorous marine mammal. Which means the only diet a dugong prefers is a vegetarian diet in layman’s language. And, they are generally found in around 42 countries in the world globally in the Indo-Pacific belt out of which in India we have only three distribution sites i.e., Gujarat, Tamil Nadu and Andaman and Nicobar Islands. So, people must remember the dugong as animals that live in the sea, they give birth to animals–they do not lay eggs like some other marine species and there is strong parental care in dugongs. From the time the calf is born, the calf will be strongly dependent on its mother for one to two years. These dugong mothers nurse their babies which is why they fall in the category of marine mammals. Marine means related to the sea and mammals mean animals that give birth to the calf and not lay eggs.

4:23

Lalitha Krishnan: That is so interesting. There is so much we do not know. How long have you three been researching dugongs and how extensive is the area you work in in these three different parts of India? 

4:39

Prachi Hatkar: I have been working in the Gulf of Kutch for five years now. The Gulf of Kutch is situated between the Saurashtra and the Kutch peninsula so the coastline of the Gulf of Kutch is about 170 km long. It starts from the Okha to the inner gulf and the mouth is about 75 km wide at the mount and the water spreads around 7300 square kms across the Gulf of Kutch. So, the Gulf of Kutch is a Marine National Park and marine sanctuary which was established in 1995. It was the first Indian marine sanctuary which was declared and it has 42 islands which covers various habitats like the grasses, corals, mangroves and intertidal zones etc. 

5:32

Lalitha Krishnan: What about you Chinmaya?

5:34

Chinmaya Ghanekar: So, like Prachi, I have also been working in Tamil Nadu – in the Gulf of Mannar and Palk Bay. These are two regions of separate seas.  One comes in Bay of Bengal which is Palk Bay and one is part of the Indian Ocean which is the Gulf of Mannar, so we kind of work at the confluence of both.  The area, to describe it, is a long, long stretch of Indian coastline – around 500 kilometres. So, from Adirampattinam if you consider till Kanyakumari it is approximately 500 km of the shore line.  And then the sea extends…in Palk Bay it extends to Sri Lanka but because of international borders we cannot access that area. But we generally restrict our area to 10 to 12 kilometres of coast. So, it is around 5000 square kilometres we cover for our study for dugongs and sea grasses and other fauna, and other factors of the project. To tell you about Park Bay, it is a very closed sea; it is like if you see Palk Bay – like I saw Palk Bay for the first time. I thought it was a lake.  It is very calm and has very glass like water most of the time but Gulf of Mannar on the opposite hand has waves and islands. These are two completely different areas so you working in both of them is pretty different from each other. Palk bay has a lot of sea grasses. Gulf of Mannar has corals, sea grasses, algae beds, rocky patches, habitat diversity so to say.  We can encompass most things of marine habitats in both areas.

7:28 

Lalitha Krishnan: Amazing. It also means that the dugong likes both habitats.

7:33

Chinmaya Ghanekar: They definitely do.

7:34

Lalitha Krishnan: Interesting. Swapnali?

7:37

Swapnali Gole: I have been working in the Andaman and Nicobar Islands studying dugongs for more than seven years now. Our study site if you see…because it is an insular set-up, it adds up to the work of our team. Because, the entire stretch is around 1962 kms, right from the northernmost island……..  till Great Nicobar it is 1962 kms. And, we have more than 800 islands, 836 to be precise. Then on each island there is a coast because it is an island, hence, we have more study areas I would say. For every island there are four coasts. And, what we have been doing is working in patches because it is not possible-considering the manpower that we have-to be present everywhere. So, we started our survey with say, the north……Andaman covered that and slowly came to the southern side. And, very recently we covered the Nicobar groups of islands. Practically the entire Andaman and Nicobar is our study area.

8:48

Laitha Krishnan: Sounds like a lifetime of work.

8:50

Swapnali Gole: It was. It took us six years to do what we did and it was very intensive.

8:57

Lalitha Krishnan:  When you say ‘team’ wherever you are, what size teams are you talking about?

9:05

Swapnali Gole: For the islands we never had a team of more than three. There was always a lot to do. I do not know why but we always had the smallest team…two or three people. For the seagrass and dugong (study) especially, the maximum I remember we had was a team of four, never more than that. 

9:27

Chinmaya Ghanekar: I have been fortunate enough to work with a team of eight people on a boat working on different aspects of the project and then we work together and it’s amazing.  But then sometimes we are just two people who are going by an auto to a coast then doing our surveys and coming back so there is variation across the years. 

9:52

Lalitha Krishnan: Prachi, I am going to ask you this question just to know more about the dugong. If a Dugong were a person, how would you describe it? 

10:03

Prachi Hatkar: I would like to describe the dugong as a gentle giant.  We have heard stories that describe the Dugong. If you see dugongs, they look similar to somewhat like a pig you can say, or mermaids… the stories we have been hearing about sailors saying, “We have been seeing mermaids in the sea”, they weren’t mermaids, they were actually seeing dugongs but perceiving them as mermaids. 

10:32

Lalitha Krishnan: Where do these stories come from?

10:36

Swapnali Gole: It was given by Christopher Columbus. In his excerpts—while he was voyaging around the West-Indies side–he wrote that, “I happened to see three mermaids today but they are not as beautiful as they have been described.” Honestly speaking, dugongs do not look like mermaids (or what we think we know of them). Only the tail resembles the mermaid but also later it was detected that maybe he did not see dugongs but manatees which are sisters of dugongs.

11:10

Lalitha Krishna: Right. Chinmaya, where can we find dugongs? In India of course, we now know but where in the rest of the world?

11:19

Chinmaya Ghanekar: So, in India as we have already mentioned it is in Gujarat, Tamil Nadu and Andaman Nicobar. So, these three areas are like pockets. If you see the map, it is like one pocket on the left-hand side of the map, one on the south and one on the right-hand side. So, we call this a pocket distribution of dugongs.  

But in the world scenario, we have the greatest number of dugongs as of now in Australia. So, after that, we have this population in Red Sea, so that is also kind of pockets so these mostly as distributed in Indo-Pacific region; very technically saying and they are present in some island countries like Philippines, Indonesia…Southeast Asian countries. They are also there in our neighbouring countries like Sri Lanka. So, they extend from the Indian ocean to the Pacific Ocean completely. But China had dugongs a few years ago and very sadly they have now declared them as functionally extinct so the population cannot grow basically any more. They do not have dugongs anymore which is kind of sad news but we should be alarmed that populations in other countries also are quite threatened. We should look at them and give them the importance they deserve.

12:51

Lalitha Krishnan: True. Swapnali, talking of habitats where do dugongs prefer to live? Tell us a bit about their biology. How long they live, up to what size they grow etc. I know you call them gentle giants but exactly how big are they?

13:15

Swapnali Gole:  Dugongs spend considerable time in the day-I am not talking of their whole night -in shallow waters. So, it is directly linked to the sea grasses that they feed upon. And seagrasses being true plants they need sunlight just like any other plant on land for creating their own energy i.e. their photosynthesis process. So, wherever light reaches the water – and this is a very local concept. In the Andamans for example, the water is very clear so it (sunlight) is going to reach much deeper there compared to Gujarat for example where the water is very turbid. So, depending on how deep the sunlight reaches, it decides on where sea grasses will be found and that automatically regulates where dugongs will be found. It is all very linked. And, because dugongs primarily feed on seagrasses, wherever their food is, their distribution is going to be centred around those areas the most and that differs from place to place. That being one. Also, there have been tagging experiments done in Australia where it has been scientifically proven that more than 70- 80% of time of a day, dugongs have been found in shallow/sheltered waters 1 metre to 5 metres because they were spending a lot of time just feeding on seagrasses. On a similar line, dugongs, as I said, feed on seagrasses. An adult dugong will eat up to, say, 35-40 kgs of sea grasses, that is a lot of seagrasses for an individual. And, when l say, ‘adult dugong’ it goes up to 3.5 to 4 metres. So, the gentle giant’s size limit is 4 metres. Dugongs are generally not recorded to grow more than that. I have never heard of dugongs growing to say, 7-8 metres. Generally, people mistake dugongs for other species. There has been misidentification in my experience also. My informant spotted a whale and thought it was a dugong. He said it was 10 metres long. That is not biologically possible because the limit for dugongs is 3.4- 4 metres. When a dugong calf is born, it is around the 9-1.2 metres size range and around 40 kgs. But as the baby grows older, and it puts on weight after eating a lot of seagrasses, the maximum weight of a dugong, I can say, can go up to 350- 400 kgs on an average. Which is why they are called gentle giants. They are massive. They are very docile animals.

15:45

Lalitha Krishnan: When you say they grow to 4 metres, has this been their size historically? I do not know if there have been any fossil finds etc? 

15:56

Swapnali Gore: Whatever documentation we have come across where dugongs have been mentioned it is beneath the size range of 3.5 to 4 metres. Relatives of the dugongs–there was a species called Steller’s Sea cow– which was really massive. It was much larger than the dugongs in size. But if you talk about the species of dugong the upper limit of dugong size is always given as 3.5-4 metres

16:20

Lalitha Krishnan: OK. Thank you so much. Prachi, now to you. You know the term seagrass meadow paints a lovely picture in the imagination. What are they really like? Also, I read that dugongs regulate seagrass ecosystems. How so?

16:42

Prachy Hatkar: So, as Swapnali mentioned earlier, dugongs are vegetarians; that they prefer seagrass. So the seagrass are present in shallow waters where the dugong reside so they are basically residing where the food is. They graze upon beds of seagrasses regulating the biomass of seagrasses. In the clear water of the Andamans for e.g. the seagrass bed looks like a football field or ground basically. It will be spread across the whole land. It is a beautiful sight. Dugongs prefer a seagrass species called Halodule specifically. Halodule and Halophila species have low fibre content and rich nitrogen content. So basically, the dugongs graze upon the seagrass meadows regulating the biomass and type of varieties of seagrass that grow in these meadows. So, they actually act as gardeners.

17:53

Lalitha Krishnan: Are you three covering aspects of dugong research in the Gulf of Kutch, Gulf of Mannar and the Andamans and Nicobar Islands?

18:02

Chinmaya Ghanekar: To talk about Tamil Nadu, Palk Bay, Gulf of Mannar, we are covering research aspects of dugongs and seagrass projects. We are also covering the outreach and capacity building and these are true for both the other sides. So, these are main four objectives which are divided into a lot of smaller sections. So, if we are talking of dugong research, we are looking at where dugongs are distributed. What are they eating? Where are they going? If they are breeding in some areas how frequently are they sighted? These are some questions we answer with dugongs. With seagrasses we look at what species are there. What types of meadows are there. What are the associated species of fish – on which my PhD is based upon. So, I am looking at how seagrasses and fish interact with each other. How they are dependent on each other. This is not exactly I would say, a direct connection to see but when we say “fish” we obviously think of food. And we have already addressed this previously; dugongs are regulating the sea grasses, and seagrasses are habitat for fish and we are connected to dugongs.

This connection and the layers in between are what we are trying to study. So, there are two things which are my main-focus. I mentioned seagrass-associated fish. What is the diversity? How do they utilise seagrasses? Are they using the space between these? Are they eating seagrasses? Are they hiding in it? Are they laying eggs on them? I am trying to answer these kinds of questions.

20:00

In terms of dugongs, I have mostly looked at the distribution of dugongs and threats associated with them. There are many, many threats like possibly a boat dashing into them or a net entanglement or pollution or coastal development. The threats that we generally hear about in marine ecosystems are also threats for dugongs. I also study that; something like plastic pollution and then we have also looked at primarily what dugongs eat in India. So, the dugong research in India has not investigated this before this so I and one of my colleagues Sumeet have done gut-content. When we get a dead dugong, we get the gut content out of it and we see what seagrass they have eaten and what they prefer. And, we have also found some plastic fragments in the gut. Those aspects we investigate from the research point of view.

In the outreach and capacity building, we mostly interact with people, different stakeholders like the Forest dept., police, marine police…all of those and try to make them aware of dugongs and give them more and more training to continuously monitor dugongs and their habitats.

21:21

Lalitha Krishnan: Well said, So, it’s not one mammal but it’s the whole world around it. Swapnali, my next question was about interacting with fishers and other folk in the coasts that you work in. What have their reactions been?  What are the challenges? And, how do dugongs behave when they encounter humans? Are we perceived as threats? Sorry, that’s a lot of questions.

21:50

Swapnali Gole: The first question is always my favourite question, honestly. It is all about communities and that is my favourite part of the work that I have done. To talk to people- the local people. So, it started with me just interacting with the fishermen. For all marine researchers, the primary stakeholder is always the fisherfolk of that particular area because they have practically spent their entire life by the sea. And nobody can have that kind of knowledge or degree of curiosity, honestly speaking. The interaction that they have with the sea and the creatures living in the sea is immense. So, we started talking with the fishermen initially to understand their idea or perceptions of dugongs and seagrasses. Also, where dugongs and seagrasses are found. So, that would be used as a baseline for our research work.

22:46

Eventually we started talking with many other people who are going out to sea in the Andamans. The benefit is that the entire area is an insular set up. Whether you are a sea-person or not, you are dependent on the sea even for commuting from one island to the other. So, your interface with the sea and these areas is going to be very much pronounced. So, we started talking to different stakeholders you know…sailors, scuba divers or for the first time, the Indian Navy and Indian coast guards. Because, there are many, many regions in the islands which are firstly geographically isolated. So, considering the limited logistics we have, we don’t always get to go to these islands. Secondly, there are restricted areas. So, there is a defense-restricted area, there is a tribal-restricted area. Again, as researchers, we don’t have permits or we need to work on the permits a lot and that takes considerable time. So, we started targeting different stakeholder agencies, who are sea-farers. That’s the only mandate required to be part of this programme which turned out to be something called The Dugong Monitoring programme – a citizen science approach. And, initially whenever we interacted with these stakeholders, not just fishermen but other people also, there was this big question mark on their face as I had mentioned in the opening statement. When you say, “dugong’, people say, “What? Are you talking about dolphins? 

Multiple times, they also correct us. “No Ma’am, you’re probably talking of dolphins.”

“No, we are talking of dugongs.”

That was the kind of response we got initially. Most of the people we spoke to were clueless of what we are studying.

The saddest part is that the dugong is the state animal of Andaman and Nicobar Islands.

24:30

Lalitha Krishnan: Really?

24:31

Swapnali Gole: Yes, even in local schools, we were surprised that the local school kids were not aware of what a dugong is. Our work starts there, with that. It’s like Chinmaya mentioned, there are many elements to the work we are doing. It starts with resources but a massive, massive chunk of our work in all three sites is sensitisation of the people. Right from dugongs to the species identity, telling them, “There is a species that lives near you and why it is important, and how you can contribute to saving them…”  in a nutshell is the kind of work we are doing at three sites.

23:11

To answer your second question, I would not say that dugongs avoid humans but in Andamans especially there is an island called Shaheed Dweep which is full of tourists. There is so much anthropogenic footprint in that area and boat traffic. You will see every type of boat there, from ferry boats to speed vessels to normal dinghy boats of fishermen. All sorts of boats are there in the water and dugongs are still coming into those areas again and again. It is said globally also, that in places like Southeast Asia which are hubs of harbours and anthropogenic footprints, dugongs are still coming into those areas.

I would like to add that dugongs behave individualistically too which goes for any species. Even in the Andamans, in Shaeed Dweep, I have seen the dugongs coming into areas where there is a lot of human interfaces. But a neighbouring island group which is a Marine National Park area…when we spotted a dugong there, and got into the water, this is my personal experience, those individuals just swam away to the other island altogether. So maybe because those individual dugongs were inside a marine protected area and not used to human-interface, they were not okay with humans coming close to them but in some other areas where humans were coming in and out every day, maybe the dugongs living in that area have become adapted to that traffic or pressure.

26:39

Lalitha Krishnan: This is so interesting, thank you.

26:42

Chinmaya Ghanekar: Can I add something?

26:44

Lalitha Krishnan: Of course. Please go ahead.

26:45

Chinmaya Ghanekar: Very recently, a week ago, a fisherman told us by phone that, “We are seeing dugongs every day in the Gulf of Mannar” in an area which is kind of a tourist area–the Tourism dept. also manages tourism there. So, he (fisherman) said that, “whenever we go out for fishing, we see dugongs daily. They come near the boat at so close a distance, you can almost pet them”. This is a different kind of interaction they have with the dugong and there is a kind of friendship between them. So, the boat comes, the dugong comes, they see it and feel happy about it. So, it is also a very, very positive interaction between the community and the dugong.

27:28

Lalitha Krishnan: That is such a wonderful thing to hear. It is making me love the dugong, a mammal I have never seen in my life. Dolphins are also known to behave like that. Maybe it is one of the reasons why they mistake them.

27:42

Chinmaya Ghanekar: Maybe but people will have different interactions with different individuals or populations differently. Like Swapnali rightly said, “There are individual reactions”. Something like in the Red sea. If you follow #dugong on Instagram, every day, you will see a photo of the Red sea where the dugong is  surrounded by divers. And, it’s feeding and kind or sleeping or doing its thing. But, that doesn’t happen here. So, the individualistic behaviour is very pronounced and it may vary with different populations also.

26:15

Ep#32 Podcast label design by Lalitha Krishnan. Dugong Photo Credit: Darius Quadros. Researchers photos courtesy Swapnali, Chinmaya and Prachi.

Lalitha Krishnan: So, the dugong is also been accorded the highest protection status i.e. Schedule-I of the Wildlife Protection Act, 1972. How does it translate in the real world? Would you like to answer that?

28.33

Chinmaya Ghanekar: 

This Wildlife Protection Act is considered one of the strongest conservation acts in the world because it has schedules. It has a lot of animals that receive protection. There are different schedules in the Wildlife Protection Act giving different status of protection to different species. The infamous one is the tiger out of all. The tiger has Schedule I protection, so do dugongs. Which is the highest kind of protection the Wildlife Act can provide. There are so many restrictions. Like, you cannot touch that animal. You cannot research that animal without permission. You cannot utilise any part of the animal in that case, not any part…even if it is excreta which happens in ambergris fish like whales. It is still part of the whale so we cannot utilise that. To even touch that kind of animal, you need permission. It is that kind of protection.

-Chinmaya Ghanekar

29:41

Lalitha Krishnan: Sorry…does that apply to even a dead animal?

29:43

Chinmaya Ghanekar: Yes, even for dead animals. Wildlife Institute of India has acquired all the permissions and we collect those samples and work with it. So, with this kind of protection, we always need permission from the government and the government is always very, very strict about it. We cannot work without permission anywhere. 

30:11

I will give you an example which happened in Thondi (Palk Bay), when I joined the project. It was a case of dugong hunting. It created a lot of fishermen agitating because it is part of their tradition and we struggle with it. They hunted it (the dugong) and the marine police put charges on them. Their boat was confiscated, their nets were confiscated. They were put in jail for seven straight years. The fisherman was about 50 years old. This kind of completely puts all kinds of restrictions on their lives. They cannot get their boat back, they lose all the money they put in for their equipment. So, the implementation of the Wildlife Protection Act is very strict in the real world.

31:05

There is one more story. When I was going on a boat, by mistake, there was a communication gap between the highest forest official and the field people and they did not allow me to go on the boat and research the dugong. So it is that strict, you need all things in place and the Wildlife Protection Act makes things happen at least in case of dugongs which I have seen personally.

31:35

Lalitha Krishnan: It is actually a good thing, isn’t it? In a way, it is protecting the animal which is what it is supposed to do.

31:43

Chinmaya Ghanekar: It might not be so straightforward as it sounded in the answer. There are a lot of agencies that come into it but then it happens. It does happen.

32:00

Lalitha Krishnan: Prachi, what part of the dugong research do you like personally? Or what has been your most amazing take away or encounter.

32:05

Prachy Hatkar: As I mentioned that I have been working with dugongs since the last five years. When I started working in Gujarat, like Swapnali said, when we went for the awareness programme, in schools or interacted with the locals, the fishermen, they mentioned that they had sighted dugongs in Gujarat-in the Gulf of Kutch-long back. Maybe 15-20 years ago. Recently they have not seen any live dugongs as such.

We were fortunate enough to see a live dugong which was the first photographic evidence in the Gulf of Kutch two years ago through the drone survey with one of my colleagues who accompanied me in the field. When we went seagrass mapping, we could actually see two dugongs.

33:02

Lalitha Krishnan: Really? Were they of the same size?

33:05

Prachy Hatkar: They were actually adult sized. We thought we could see a mother and calf pair in another sighting. But we were fortunate enough to have a dugong sighting. We knew then the dugong was not locally extinct from Gujarat.  

33:26

Lalitha Krishnan: Such a positive sighting. Swapnali, how about you?

33:28

Swapnali Gole: On a similar line, I have spent more than seven years studying dugongs. And my first sighting…from boats I had spotted dugongs. Honestly speaking, in the Andamans it is pretty possible to spot a dugong considering the water is also clean. My first underwater sighting–despite diving so much throughout the islands, happened after five years. I remember I had spent 45 minutes with this individual. I had almost given up all hope… “I won’t see it” I said to myself. 

So then when I spotted that individual, it was like “Wow”. You know, your entire journey as a dugong researcher flashes just right in front of you. I was literally crying underwater. I cried so much my mask filled up with my tears.

-Swapnali Gole

I was so happy and then I realised I had left all my friends who had been diving with me behind and I was literally following the individual.

34:38

And in those 45 minutes, it was just me and the dugong. You know, it was a surreal moment for me. Then I was a very happy soul. Finally, after all the hard work I had put in.

34:48

Lalitha Krishnan: That’s an exclusive. First of all, who gets 45 minutes alone with an animal? You are extremely lucky.

34:55

Swapnali Gole: I am lucky. I have so much gratitude for those 45 minutes.

35:01

Lalitha Krishnan: But you all deserve it for the work you have done. That is your reward to see a free, happy, healthy animal living in its habitat. Chinmaya, do you want to add to that?

35:17

Chinmaya Ghanekar: The first ever live dugong sighting I had…  I was dying to see a dugong. Because, everybody was telling you they saw a dugong here, a dugong there but you are not seeing one. It is frustrating. It’s very frustrating after spending a long, long time in the sea. I was talking about the other work I was doing per different aspects of seagrasses and other related fauna… So, we were doing that, sitting on the boat, and sieving the sand out. So, I was doing the sieving and behind me, I just heard this loud breath in the water. It was a loud, loud breath. I left the sieve down and when I turned around, I saw the tail of a dugong which was going underwater. I cannot tell you how beautiful that was. I have a picture-memory of that and I really want to see that again but the first experience will always be special. And this was special.

36:21

Lalitha Krishnan: True. Talking of breath, are dugongs vocal?

36:27

Prachy Hatkar: Yes, they are very much. They chirp like birds. They actually chirp under water. As you know, sound travels four times faster underwater compared to land. So, obviously, that’s the only communication that works for them – underwater sound.

36:49

Swapnali Gole: in addition to what Prachy said, there are various categories of vocalisation patterns which have been identified for dugongs. We unfortunately do not have any dugong vocalisation study happening in India by WII or any other researchers. But in Japan, people have studied dugong vocalisation patterns. So, they have categorised dugong vocalisation patterns…they also bark. So, it is a different frequency range for each category. And, then they chirp as Prachy has mentioned. But then, there is the possibility that dugongs will vocalise very rarely; and only when it is fully needed. They are not like dolphins who echolocate and communicate.

17:28

So there have been studies where the sample size of what researchers have put forward to study communication patterns has been immense but compared to the efforts that have gone into it, there have been very few recordings of dugong communications. So, that is also one point to be understood: that not always do dugongs communicate as dolphins do or other marine mammals do.

37:53

Lalitha Krishnan: Sounds like such a very self-sufficient mammal and very smart too. What is the role of WII in Dugong conservation in India? What are the government initiatives in place right now for protecting it? And what is the way forward? Also, I always ask three questions at a time.

38:18

Chinmaya Ghanekar: Yes, because they are very much connected to each other. Wildlife Institute of India is part of the government. Though it is autonomous it works very, very closely with the government…different, different departments; not only the forest department. As Swapnali mentioned we also work with the Indian navy, coast guard, all of these defence bodies. 

The Wildlife Institute of India initiated the CAMPA dugong recovery programme in 2016. From that time, Swapnali is the most eligible person to comment as she is one of the first researchers from WII who has started work on dugongs. Before that, in 2013, Dr ShivKumar and one more researcher called Aditi Nayar. They both had a research programme regarding dugongs in Gujarat, Tamil Nadu and Andamans and Nicobar; where they have seen the perspective of people about dugongs typically, the local communities who interact with the sea on a daily basis. From that they had come up with something called the Critical Dugong Habitats where dugong sightings or populations are more. And also, human pressure is a lot in the area. So, both those things combined are called Critical Dugong Habitats.

39:45 

And based on that we started our work in the CAMPA Dugong Recovery Programme. But as I mentioned earlier, we started with four objectives. One is dugong research, the other is seagrass and associated fauna research; one is outreach and the other is capacity building. So, WII has been actively working on all four of the objectives.

40:17

Research we have touched upon what kind of research we do. But in outreach programmes, there is this highlighted programme called the Dugong Scholarship programme which is a very novel initiative as it targets the fishermen-kids. So, we go from school to school, identify fishermen-kids and we give scholarships to them which is Rs 500/- per month and these scholarships are  given at such a time-in 9th or 11th grade-when they might not have money to go for further education.  At least they will have this one 10th pass certificate or 12th pass certificate which is at least the basic level of education one would expect from someone. So, the scholarship is given at that time.

41:09

And through them, as Swapnali mentioned, the dugong volunteer network or volunteer programme network. Their scholarship student-parents being fisherfolk, they also provide us information. So, we give them the scholarship and we get information. It’s a barter and it’s a beautiful barter because we get to know so many things which we might not be knowing about dugongs through research papers. Because, the local experience is somebody’s father who has been fishing probably for the last 20 years. He will have the experience which we might not expect. Something like, the dugong-friendship story we told you about. This Dugong Scholarship programme has immensely grown in all the three main states. We now have about 500 students who are part of that programme. And we will continue it for the next few years or so. 

42:05

In terms of capacity building specifically–the word capacity building itself says we need to strengthen the stakeholder’s capacity. So, we give them scuba diving training programmes or drone training programmes to monitor and understand more about their habitats. Because, in the end, maybe we will be there, or somebody else will come, but the forest department and other stakeholders…they’re going to stay forever. So, they are the people who should actually see this diversity and have long term monitoring, and WII is kind of hand holding them all the time. And it’s not true only for dugong projects, iit’s for all the outreach and research combined projects WII has, hand holding is a huge, huge part which we play all the time.

42:57

We have also held Marine mammals stranding workshops in Tamil Nadu to state veterinarians and range forest officers. In that, what happens is –you always see videos on facebook or other social media or the news that a whale is stranded or a dolphin or turtles are stranded/dead or something similar. It is a pretty unique situation because we don’t know what to do. If it is a live animal, we may want to rescue it but how, we do not know. Or if it is a dead animal, should we bury it? What samples should be collected? What information can we get out of it? Since marine mammals are very distinct, as researchers or forest officials also, we cannot interact with them on a daily basis. It is only part of the job we do. We have so many other things. So, if a dugong is stranded, we can actually understand the size of it, why it has died or is there any other associated information viz. the gut content I was talking about.

44:07

To get this kind of response, they should be trained people and there should be veterinarians to understand what the reason of death is. Are there any diseases? Are there any infections? All those kinds of questions, veterinarians can answer. So, giving them training on what to do, how to do was a huge, huge part of that workshop.

44:29

We also came up with a book on how to respond to these events. And, hopefully that workshop is going to be repeated with other sets of people so more people can be aware of what to do. WII always provides these kinds of workshops to strengthen the data collection and in the end it all strengthens our understanding of dugong and seagrass populations, of course other marine life populations.

And, the government has been very proactive in dugong conservation. Recently, and this is a huge success story for the government, a new Dugong Conservation Reserve has been declared in north Palk Bay which is around a 50 kms stretch and 10 kms of shore, so approx. a 500 sq kms. area which is a specifically designated area. And, this is the first conservation reserve for dugongs in the country. So, we were notified in 2022. Now they are coming up with a management plan for local people. How to give training to say, stakeholders like tourists. They are planning a dugong conservation centre, an interpretation centre where people can learn more about dugongs. Maybe learn snorkelling, see the fish, seagrasses, and all of it. So, this is a government initiative which they are doing really, really proactively.

46:13

Lalitha Krishnan. Well, good to know. There’s so much work you’ll are doing, individually, as an organisation and with the government, That’s great. OK. The next question. Prachy, I am going to start with you. Could you share a word that will help us increase our understanding/vocabulary of dugongs? Maybe a concept or a word. Something that is significant to you.

46:42

Prachy Hatkar: It (Dugongs) is a part of our marine life and needs to be preserved. The fact is I didn’t know about dugongs before joining the project. I literally saw an advertisement and I did not know such an animal existed, that is a vegetarian mammal. The manatees are already there but they are basically living in freshwater. This one (dugong) is one which is still surviving after so many years and that is so incredible. That’s my thought that we should be saving this marine animal which will go extinct if we don’t make the effort.

47:40

Swapnali Gole:  If I must send this message across in one word, I would say, people should remember the word ‘umbrella’. When it rains and you open the umbrella, whoever is standing under the umbrella gets saved from the rain.  That is exactly, that is exactly what dugongs are for seagrass meadows. It is also called an umbrella species. So, if you save dugongs, you save seagrasses. Chinmaya said she was working on fishes. It saves fish. Me and Prachy are working on associated invertebrates of seagrass habitats for our PhDs. They also get saved. Every single individual which is associated with seagrasses, including dugongs will be saved if you save dugongs. An umbrella. 

48:22

Lalitha Krishnan: Fantastic. And, also eventually, the humans around those habitats. 

48:49

Swapnali Gole: Exactly. And also, the economy. Sorry, I missed out on that. So, the people who are dependent on seagrasses will be saved.

48:42

Chinmaya Ghanekar: I would say, ‘family.’ Not only because as researchers we have developed this emotional connection with the animal over the years but it’s the family structure they have. It is mostly a maternal family. And, the bond between the mother and the calf is so beautiful, so special that people may imagine having the bond with their own mother. It is as special as that.

We must also recognise that these animals will have their life and we are kind of interfering with that so maybe we need to hold back a little and see what we are doing to the families.

-Chinmaya Ghanekar

49:34

Lalitha Krishnan: Very good. Thank you all.

49:45

Prachy Hatkar: I wanted to say a few things. We celebrate World Dugong Day on 20th May every year. We have a huge month of celebration; we carry out activities in the field. So, please stay tuned on our social media, website where we keep updating our activities. There was this school teacher from the Andamans, Chanchal Singha Roy who wrote a book called “Dugong My Friend’. We have translated that in regional languages and we do circulate these in schools. So that copy is also available on the website if somebody wants to check.

50:18

Lalitha Krishnan: Hey guys, that was fantastic. You’ll rock, really! Three amazing women. There is so much you’ll are doing. I am genuinely grateful for you’ll coming on for this interview and speaking your hearts and minds and sharing everything you know. I learnt so much, I really feel like going out there and checking these places out….

50:47

Chinmaya Ghanekar: You’re always welcome. Please come.

Audio: Birdsong

Birdsong by hillside resident, the collared owlet.

Dugong Photo Credit: Darius Quadros. Researchers photos courtesy Swapnali, Chinmaya and Prachi. Podcast cover/label design by Lalitha Krishnan.

Disclaimer: Views, thoughts, and opinions expressed in the podcast and show notes belong solely to the guest/guests featured in the episode, and not necessarily to the host of this podcast/blog or the guest’s employer, organization, committee or other group or individual

Seena Narayanan Tells us About the Secret Life of Dung Beetles in Less than 20 Minutes.

Beetle (Terracotta) by Lalitha Krishnan
~ Lalitha Krishnan ~ Leave a comment

Heart of Conservation podcast. EP#28 Show notes (Edited)

Hi there, I’m Lalitha Krishnan and you’re listening to Season 4, Episode 28 of Heart of Conservation. I bring you stories from the wild that keep us all connected to our natural world.

We hear of people following the butterfly trail,  or kids chasing frogs and catching worms, but beetle watching isn’t a thing as far as I know. But my guest on this episode is passionate about the real dung beetles so much so it was the topic of her PhD research. Three new species of dung beetles have been discovered and named by her. I’m speaking to  Seena Narayanan, a Senior Research Associate & Assistant Museum Curator at ATREE. She has prepared species pages for the Scarabaeine dung beetles of the Indian subcontinent and manages a growing insect collection at the ATREE Insect Museum in Bangalore. Seena thank you so much for joining me on Heart of Conservation.

0:59

Seena Narayanan: It’s a pleasure. Thank you, Lalitha.

Lalitha Krishnan: Now, according to Wikipedia, there are 400,000 beetle species which constitute 40% of all described insects and except for the sea and polar regions they can be found anywhere on earth. And yet, we know so little about them.  Seena could you start with defining a dung beetle? So, what makes it different from other beetle species?

1:27

Seena Narayanan: The beetles are the largest order among all insects. They belong to the order Coleoptera. ‘Coleos’ means sheath-like and ‘tera’ defines wings. It’s Greek. So, for most of the insect orders, you’ll find ‘tera’ in their names. Why beetles are successful, why they are in such huge numbers is because of elytra which are the forewings which protect their transparent underwing or their body as a whole. Around the world, we find 6000 species of dung beetles. They’re different from other beetle species because they mostly feed on dung. We’re talking about Scarabaeinae today which are True dung beetles. Scarabaeinae is a subfamily of beetles and they belong to the family Scarabaeidae. This Scarabaeidae family has many subfamilies. Scarabaeinae is one among many subfamilies.  

2:48

Lalitha Krishnan: How many species of dung beetles can we find in India?

2:53

Seena Narayanan: In India, we’ll find around 500 species of the 6000 species of beetles worldwide. When I say 500 species, I am particularly talking about Scarabaeinae, the True dung beetles. So, in North-east India, we recently published a paper and we have recorded around 206 species. All over India, there are around 500 species.

3:24

Lalitha Krishnan: You discovered three species and named them. So, tell us about those.

3:30

Seena Narayanan: As the name indicates, these were mostly found in dung. They will provision their young ones also with dung but some beetles were found on other resources. I was studying these dung beetles which were found on millipedes and some mushrooms. Most of the species I discovered were from these millipedes. We got two species from the Western Ghats and one from Northeast India which was found feeding on a dead snail. These were from Onthophagus which is the most specio genus—‘Specio’ means most of the species are found under this genus. So one is called Onthophagus jwalae and the other, Onthophagus pithankithae. These two were found on millipedes and Onthophagus tharalithae which were found on snails.

4:34

Lalitha Krishnan: When you say, they are feeding on millipedes, are they feeding on dead insects or latching themselves to live ones?

4:41

Seena Narayanan: There was this particular species that was found running behind a live millipede which we found in the forest of Southern India. So, it need not only be dead millipedes that dung beetles feed on. It can even feed on the tissue of a live one. So when we got that millipede to the lab we saw that one adult was inside the body of a millipede which was alive. There are many predatory dung beetle species. Even though these millipedes produce defensive chemicals, it’s found that these dung beetles are attracted to these defensive chemicals because of the smell. The smell attracts them from far away and they come to the site.

5:35

Lalitha Krishnan: What is the dung beetle dance? I’ve read about it…

5:39

Seena Narayanan: Prof Marcus Byrne and Dr Mary Dacke were doing a series of experiments on Roller beetles. They saw these beetles rolling away from the dung balls. Let me explain. These dung beetles have different functional groups. Some of them will roll away the dung balls. These are the Roller beetles. Some will tunnel under the dung pat; these are the Tunnelers and some will just dwell in the dung pat. So, in this process, they will take away the resources to avoid competition from other beetles. Among the dung rollers, (Prof Marcus Byrne and Dr Mary Dacke) did some experiments in Africa and they saw that the Dung beetle, each time they roll a dung ball, it will climb on top of this dung ball and they will turn around and orient itself. What they’re doing in this dance is they are looking for the sun. According to that, they will orient themselves and push the ball in a straight line. They also saw that there is some kind of thermoregulation. They will rub their face in between while on top of the dung ball. This is to keep themselves cool on that hot sand. The way they orient themselves on the dung ball is called the dung beetle dance.

7:30

Lalitha Krishnan:  Lalitha Krishnan: You did mention how they nest? But could you elaborate a little more?

7:36

Seena Narayanan: As I said, this nesting is different for different functional groups. There are these tunnelers; among the tunnelers themselves, the sizes will vary. There are large tunnelers and small tunnelers. The smallest one might take the dung into the soil just under the dung pat, just some centimetres down. The largest ones like the Heliocopris dominus, the Elephant dung beetle can take the dung a meter deep. In the case of tunnelers, they take the dung under the dung pat and they tunnel under the soil. So, there can be different branches in that tunnel and what they do is they nest at the end of these branches-the tunnels. So, they will make many brood balls inside and the male and female will mate inside this tunnel and lay eggs inside these brood balls. That’s how they provide for the young ones.

8:43

And in the case of the rollers, they will just roll the dung ball some metres or feet away from the main resource and again, they will tunnel under the soil and bury these dung balls.

9:02

In the case of dwellers, what they do is, lay brood balls in the dung pat itself and lay eggs in these dungballs.

And young ones are called grubs.

Lalitha Krishnan: Grubs. Of course. Birds love them.

Seena Narayanan: They feed and change instars and pupate.

Lalitha Krishnan: What are instars?

9:28

Seena Narayanan: Instars are the different stages. So, in the end, they will produce a pupa and the adult will emerge from that. After the summer showers, once the soil gets a little wet, they will emerge. This is the time, starting of June when they start to emerge.

9:53

Lalitha Krishnan: This is also the season when birds are still feeding their young with grub for instance. You know you mentioned dung beetles feed on millipede apart from the dung of course but what else constitutes a dung beetle’s diet?

10:13

Seena Narayanan: True Dung beetles;  because they provide their brood also with dung and also they feed on dung, they’re called ‘True dung beetles’- Scarabaeinae subfamily. The adults can take in the liquid form of dung; their mouthparts are modified for even tiny particles of dung. And grubs can feed on solid dung material also. Other than that they also feed on—as I said before—the tissues of millipedes, snails, dead decaying substances and also on decaying fruits.

11:12

Lalitha Krishnan: Interesting. Earlier you had spoken about the beetle dance but I just want the audience to know that even in Egyptian mythology, the dung rolling beetle was associated with the god of the rising sun who was believed to roll the disk of the morning sun at daybreak. Scientifically, it has been proven that migratory birds, seals and other creatures too navigate by the stars. But that’s also been said of the dung beetles. Is it true?

11:44

Seena Narayanan: Yes. The experiments which Prof. Marcus Byrne and Dr Mary Dacke had done–were awarded the Noble Prize for this work. There are diurnal beetles and nocturnal beetles also, so, it’s not just in the daytime you find beetles, they’re active during the night also. You’ll find some species rolling the dungballs at night. When there is no sun, what they do is, follow the stars. That’s what the experiment results prove. They will follow the light of the milky way/stars.

12:31

Lalitha Krishnan: That’s amazing. And, like birds, do you think they get disoriented by street/building lights?

12: 39

Seena Narayanan: So, even on cloudy nights, they get disoriented according to the experiment results. When they spot the polarised lights they will get attracted to the light and keep moving. They can be some effect of street lighting etc which is very bright.

13:08

Lalitha Krishnan: What threats do dung beetles face?

13:11

Seena Narayanan: So, most of the threats are anthropogenic. There is deforestation and habitat loss. There are species-specific dung beetles like the elephant dung beetle I was talking about earlier. These specifically feed on elephant dung. As mammals reduce in number, it affects the population of dung beetles also. They have to find the resources. So, when there are lots of trees cut down,  deforestation happening, and lots of buildings coming up, there is no pasture lands for cattle to graze. All these things affect dung beetles.

14:08

Lalitha Krishnan: True. We see birds care for their young and other animals do the same of course but when it comes to insects, we don’t know much about their parental care. Perhaps, because we don’t see them too much or we don’t observe them too much.   How do beetles care for their young?  

14:30

Seena Narayanan: In the insect world there are many insects which give parental care like the Giant water bug which carries its eggs on its body to protect them. The Spittlebug produce spittle which protects the eggs kept inside. Similarly, the dung beetle provides their young ones with dung. In some species, like the largest species which lay eggs only once a year, the female will protect the young ones for a while. They stay around the nest, near their brood balls. So, in the case of larger species like the dung beetles, you’ll find some parental care.

15:24 Alright. Now Seena, would you like to tell us something about your current role at the Insect museum?

15:29

Seena Narayanan: The collections at ATREE Insect Museum are curated according to the projects and according to the insect groups the PhD students are working on. Whatever we collect from these projects and their fieldwork are part of the collections at the ATREE Insect Museum. Insects are named, labelled according to which place they are collected from, and curated. We create a database. Right now, we have two projects that are DBT funded projects for monitoring the diversity of ants and dung beetles of Northeast India and another is for edible insects of Northeast India. We have collections from most states. The second phase of the project will be coming in a couple of months. The recent collections we have are of ants, dung beetles and edible insects of North East India.

We also have parasitic wasps i.e. these wasps which belong to the Hymenoptera order. We have many new species being described.

16:52

Lalitha Krishnan: Are these from the Northeast?

16:55

Seena Narayanan: All over India. We have collections from the Western ghats. The person who recently joined our lab is working on those collections from the Western Ghats and from Northeast India.

Lalitha Krishnan: How many of you work at the Insect lab?

Seena Narayanan: Currently we have two Research Associates and four JRFs.

17:18

Lalitha Krishnan: Could you share a word or concept that will improve our understanding of dung beetles?

17:32

Seena Narayanan: As beetles are very important to the ecosystem, and they help in many services, I would say it is ‘Eco-system Services’. Through the process of relocating dung and burying them, they help in nutrient cycling and bioturbation which means the porosity of the soil increases. Then there is this secondary seed dispersal—whatever seeds are present in the dung are dispersed. And, there are some parasites which get suppressed and beetles also help increase nutrients in the soil. So, many ecosystem services are provided by dung beetles even reducing greenhouse gas emissions.

18:25

Lalitha Krishnan: Thank you so much, Seena. What you do is so important and so interesting. And I love all the stories about dung beetles.

18:35

Seena Narayanan: Thank you Lalitha. Each insect has its own story.

18:40

Lalitha Krishnan: I hope you enjoyed listening to Seena and hearing all about dung beetles. Do check out the ATREE website. Heart of Conservation is available on several platforms. Do subscribe and watch out for more episodes and please spread the word. Bye for now.

https://www.atree.res.in/users/seena-narayanan

https://www.encyclopedia.com/arts/educational-magazines/insect-play

Birdsong by hillside resident, the collared owlet.

Podcast cover artwork by Lalitha Krishnan

Disclaimer: Views, thoughts, and opinions expressed in the podcast and show notes belong solely to the guest featured in the episode, and not necessarily to the host of this podcast/blog or the guest’s employer, organization, committee or other group or individual.

Behind the Scenes, Wildlife Rehabilitation: Jayanthi Kallam (ARRC).

~ Lalitha Krishnan ~ Leave a comment

Heart of Conservation Podcast. Ep #27 Part 2 Show notes (Edited)

Introduction:

Hi there, I’m Lalitha Krishnan and you’re listening to Season 4, part 2 of Episode 27 of Heart of Conservation. I bring you stories from the wild that keep us all connected to our natural world. Today, I continue my conversation with Jayanthi Kallam, Executive Director of Avian and Reptile Rehabilitation Centre in Bangalore and part of her amazing team including Subeksha, Ranjana, Samiiha and Veerababu to find out what it takes to make a wildlife rehabilitation centre an efficient and successful one.

0:36

Subeksha: Hi, my name is Subeksha. I am the Rescue Coordinator here; I am also an Animal Rehabilitator and I have been working here for a year and a half now. My role involves coordinating rescues, managing the place a little bit as well. I do work with the animals directly.

Lalitha Krishnan: I understand ‘co-ordinator’ but how exactly does it work?

1:04

Subeksha: The first step to that is dealing with outside people when they call you, answering calls, giving them basic instructions on how to handle the situation till the rescue team arrives and then planning out how to go about the rescue. Which person to send, what equipment will be needed for the rescue, figuring all of that out… How to optimize so that…on some days we do get a whole lot of rescues.

-Subeksha (Animal coordinator at ARRC)

1:30

Lalitha Krishnan: What is a whole lot?

1:32

Subeksha: Depends on the season. Right now we are getting into the season where we are getting a lot of baby animals coming in. We also have a lot of Manja (kite string with glued-on glass) cases coming in so some days rescues may go up from 15-20 rescues a day. So I’m making sure it’s all done efficiently and animals get rescued on time. So I’m coordinating that.

1:54

Lalitha Krishnan: And when you speak about making a plan, how long does that take to make a plan when you get a rescue call?

2:01

Subeksha: It is very dynamic. So, a rescuer may be assigned for something else but if a situation comes up which needs more immediate attention, they will be redirected there and another person will be sent for this. So, it (the plan) has to be immediate so that it’s based on the situation. Which one gets more priority? So, yes, it’s instantaneous. It’s very dynamic.

2:22

Ranjana: My name is Ranjana. I’ve also been here for about a year and a half. I’m under training for rescue coordination and currently, I’m mainly working with animals, the rehabilitation and caretaking part with respect to feeds. One of the things we are prioritizing right now are nestlings-like you saw over there. It’s the season for kite nestlings that are coming in. So, we are prioritizing that at the moment and I also handle the social media part of it for our centre.

2:58

Lalitha Krishnan: OK. What is a typical day like for you?

3:01

Ranjana: A typical day as a rehabilitator…we mainly start about 6:00 am. We do a check on all the animals that are currently at the centre. Any critical animal will get immediate care/intervention. Post that, we get on to feeds. Each animal has to be reviewed with respect to what feeds they are on. If they’re weak, they’re put on fluids and things like that. So, that has to be taken care of. So once the feeds are done, we get on to two different things at the moment. One is the ICU where we have animals like kites and crows and the other section is the neonatal part where we have younger, smaller birds and squirrels and animals like that.

3:43

Ranjana: The schedule varies a lot with respect to both sections. So, then we have our ICU where the critical animals are attended to. Animals with wounds and medications are checked about twice a day. Once in the morning and once in the evening. Dressings, if they have to be done. If animals are eating properly. Things like that are taken care of. Post that, we also have feeds. Again, to ensure the young ones are growing well, they’re eating, if they need any intervention in case they’re not eating. And also. being able to monitor their health if they’re not looking as great, we have to intervene asap. So, this happens throughout the day and in the evening it’s more focused on the nocturnal animals. We also have a lot of owls and bats and animals like that. So, they get a little more priority.

4:40

Sameha: Hi, I’m Samiha Zele. So my daily schedule is feedings when I come in; weighing the meat that needs to be fed. So, most neonatal birds, don’t eat meats. It’s mostly fruits and seeds and the kites and crows get meat. The crows also get papaya. And then, we also have bats. They devour fruit plates. So I chop up fruits in the evening for them and then I work on filling up fluids, medicine, helping with other small duties at the same time in-between.

5:23

Lalitha Krishnan: What backgrounds are you’ll coming from? What did you do before this? Or is this your first job?

5:33

Ranjana: No, I actually studied architecture. Midway through that is when I realized that this is kind of what I wanted to do. There was a period when I was trying to combine both passions because I wasn’t ready to let go of either. So, I was working on habitat design and enclosure designs for a while at my last job and then during the beginning of Corona is when I heard about the opening and I applied for this job.

6:02

Subeksha: I actually did my Masters’s in Wildlife Science from Amity University, Noida. So, for a while, I kind of had my eyes on a rehabilitation kind of setting for a long time since that’s where I feel I fit in, in a way because that’s what I want to contribute to.

There’s a lot more to rehab than what most people think. It’s not just about rescuing animals and putting them out there. There’s a whole lot that goes into it. You have to take things like ecology and disease management…there’s so much to the field.

So, yes, I felt like this was something where I could contribute. My main focus before that was on research and I said, “Hey this would be nice to do”. At some point during my Masters, I really wanted to pursue this. That’s when I reached out and started working here. Yes, this is my first job.

7:01

Samiha: I completed high school in California and during that time, I worked in a parrot shelter. I’ve been working at a lot of different things related to conservation like little different fields in that which also include…I did a little bit of customer service and retail during certain periods. When I moved back to India in 2019, I started working as a Wildlife Education Assistant. Then, I was working in elephant research; then I was working on an independent project with another advisor in entrepreneurship during 2021. And, I just started working here in 2022 in February.

7:46

Lalitha Krishnan: Jayanthi, it’s been a tough two years for everyone with the pandemic. I want to know if the number of rescues decreased with everyone at home.

7:57:

Jayanthi Kallam: Actually no. Quite unexpectedly, post-Covid, after the lockdowns, the numbers of certain rescues cases have skyrocketed. Two things have happened that have increased our rescues. One, which applies to Bangalore particularly, is Manja (kite string) cases. A lot of people during lockdown…their contact sports were limited. Children could not go out. They didn’t have school and people were looking at ways to engage the kids as they stayed together as a family so kite flying as a sport got picked up unexpectedly because people could do that from their terraces and things like that. And suddenly, we have seen these Manja cases skyrocket post the first lockdown. And it continued to increase. And, in the second lockdown last year, it became quite worse. Just to give you an example, in July of last year, 2021, we did 910 rescues out of which close to 600 were Manjarescues. All these birds hang to these kite flying threads that get left out after people fly them. So that in fact has increased the load. On one side there was this lockdown and we had quarantine protocols you know. People’s movements were restricted and we didn’t have all of our staff available to us. On the other side, there is an increasing number of rescues that were coming our way. We could not hire new staff during that time. So, that was a challenge to go through.

9:34

The second type of challenge we faced is a lot of people in the beginning part of the pandemic assumed that bats were the reason for Corona and suddenly we started getting so many calls to remove bats from neighbourhoods. People who were tolerant of bats before—and we have worked with them-but post-pandemic they were like, “No, we don’t want bats, please remove them”. That became a lot of work… trying to convince them. In some cases, provide alternatives in some other cases. Of course, we would never get involved in the removal of a wild animal because that goes against our objective in the first place. But we had to counsel all these people who are calling and do our best to convince them to try and coexist with bats and tell them that’s not the reason… and make them understand about Covid and the bats in general and try and disassociate that connection from bats and covid. In these ways, and many other ways actually, the lockdown has brought us increasing rescue calls. And, a lot of wildlife because the roads were all free and there was no movement from people. One spotted peacocks everywhere in Bangalore; on the roads, on the terraces and things like that. So even those rescue calls have increased. Lockdown had been a double whammy for us during covid because we had to make sure we, our animals and our employees are safe with all disrupted supply chains, a disrupted workforce and at the same time, we had to attend to increasing rescue calls. But we had a great team, we got through sound and safe on the other side. So we’re very glad about that.

11:26

Lalitha Krishnan: Hats off to you and your team. It’s so strange. One doesn’t think of all these things. One is so self-occupied. Most of the time, we only care about our next meal, our this and our that.

11:41

Jayanthi Kallam: That is the purpose of a wildlife rehabilitation centre according to me. See, if there is no wildlife rehabilitation centre, all these connections that we have with the animals around us, how we impact them, how they impact us, these connections get missed and we don’t think about it unless we see an animal. So, what happens if a community has a wildlife rescue centre? They are connecting with people… they get all these different calls or encounters with wildlife. There are different things, these stories go on and on and we don’t have time to go through 10% of it now. Now, as a rescue centre, we are specializing in looking at conflict in an urban environment between wild animals and humans. We gain a lot of understanding in how to mitigate these, figure out what the real issues are, how to go forward and things like that. So, that is the purpose of a rehabilitation centre. It’s not just the animals that benefit but in a way, the community gets the benefit because now the community has a place to go to if they have any questions, issues or they want to do something for wildlife/animals around them. You know, they have a place to go to now. That’s in some ways a service to the community also I feel and not just for the animals that come through our door.

13:09

Lalitha Krishnan: That’s true. I wouldn’t have put it that way but it’s something to think about. Thank you so much, Jayanthi. Once an animal comes to you, it’s treated and has recovered, what do you do next?

13:28

Jayanthi Kallam:

Every wildlife rehabilitation centre’s primary goal or only goal is to return the wild animal back to nature. Back to its function in the wild. With that in mind, we emphasise so much on the right rescue and the right treatment which will enable us to put that animal back. Because these animals and birds have families too. They survive well in the wild where they belong.

Black kite in rehab at ARRC photographed with permission by author.

13:59

There are two types of releases that we do. If it is an adult animal or if it is a juvenile animal, we try to put them back where they’re found. If we rescued it from your neighbourhood, I’ll try to release it about 50 metres from your house, something like that. But if it’s not an adult, if it is a young animal, which came as a baby to us, it also needs to learn critical life skills to survive. So, ‘hard releasing’ is not a good solution for the animal. We do what is called a ‘soft release’. We’re not just pushing them out there to survive. They have been in our care, in a rehabilitation-controlled setting and suddenly if you release them, they will not be able to survive in the wild. So, we go through what is called a ‘soft release’ process which is we acclimatize them in a safe environment like a cage or something like that. We acclimatize them first where we are going to release them so they get used to the sights, smell and sounds of that place and after a few days of that we try to give them access to the outside and it is up to them whether they leave. If we are doing this with five birds, two of them will leave and two of them may need a little more care so they might stay back. They will go as and when they will feel comfortable with the outside world. And, if they encounter anything they are not sure of, they will actually come back. Recently we released three tailor birds, these tiny little things and in post three days of release, in the evening, they come back to this cage that we have where they feel safe. They will be allowed to come back. Slowly, once they find themselves comfortable outside, they will release themselves. This process is called the soft release process which is important to do when these baby birds and animals grow up with us.

16:04

Lalitha Krishnan: Very interesting. Jayanthi, could you share or hold a concept that you hold dear that will improve our vocabulary or perception of the wild or wildlife rescues.

16:16

Jayanthi Kallam: The whole concept behind what we do with wildlife rescues and rehabilitation and the philosophy behind it is—at least for me –is the concept of eco-centric development. We all want to develop for sure as humans but we have a choice in which way we want to develop.

Is our development going to be egocentric or ecocentric? What is eco-centric development? Eco centric development looks at humans as a subset or a part of the environment and nature as a whole. It is based on this concept that there is value and importance of nature and every life form in it and we are also part of it. Whereas, eco-centric development focuses on the parts of nature that are useful to humans. So, our effort in doing this is to foster the connection we have with animals around us and encourage people to shift more toward this eco-centric approach by making them aware of the fact that these wild animals are also part of our neighbourhoods, nature and that our actions will have an impact on them. So, let us choose our future carefully and focus on eco-centric development realizing that that development is in what our development lies and which would be more sustainable and feasible in the long run.

18:14

Lalitha Krishnan: That is so enlightening. Thank you, Jayanthi.

18:31

Lalitha Krishnan: Veerababu, how many rescue calls do you get in a day?

18:20

Veerababu (edited): There are a lot of Manja cases coming in. Summer is the start of the Manja season. December to June. This is the big season but last year this time, we did so many rescues every day, around 20-25, 30. But now awareness is more widespread amongst children also. I always tell them not to use glass-glued kite stings. Wherever I go, I tell the children, “Hey guys don’t leave these kite strings behind, they’re very dangerous.” But now, I think things are changing a little bit. Not 100% but at least 50% change in mindset is happening I feel.

19:11

Lalitha Krishnan:

On that positive note, I’ll end this episode. I hope you enjoyed listening to Jayanthi Kallam and part of her team. Do check out the ARRC website. Heart of Conservation is available on several platforms. Do subscribe and spread the word, guys. Stay safe. Bye

Birdsong by hillside resident, the collared owlet.

Podcast cover artwork by Lalitha Krishnan

Disclaimer: Views, thoughts, and opinions expressed in the podcast and show notes belong solely to the guest featured in the episode, and not necessarily to the host of this podcast/blog or the guest’s employer, organization, committee or other group or individual.

“Barrenness is Always a State of Mind, Never a State of Land”-Yuvan Aves

~ Lalitha Krishnan ~ Leave a comment

Heart of Conservation Podcast Ep# 24 Show Notes (Edited)

O:06

Introduction: Hi there, Thanks for listening in to season three, episode #24 of Heart of Conservation. I’m Lalitha Krishnan bringing you more stories from the wild that keep us connected with the natural world.  You can read the show notes of this episode right here and check out the extra links provided by my guest below.  I am speaking to Yuvan, a naturalist, educator, activist, musician and author. One of India’s young influencers Yuvan is currently documenting coastal stories, helping create tree laws, saving the biodiversity of sand dunes and water bodies apart from a host of other ecologically relevant issues. 

0:46

Lalitha Krishnan: Thank you Yuvan for joining me and my listeners on Heart of Conservation. I’m truly excited to be speaking to you. There are so many things we can talk about but I’d like to start with something more recent if you don’t mind. In collaboration with the Madras Naturalist’s Society, you recently launched the Urban Wilderness Walk Internship which in your words is a dream come true as a naturalist and educator.  Tell us the why, what and how did you realize this dream?

1:20

Yuvan Aves: Yes, sure. Firstly, I am very, very delighted to be on your podcast. A lot of people you have spoken with, some of the questions you have asked, their work, their voice, their writing has been very formative for me and so I’m very happy to be here in conversation with you.

So, see, Urban Wilderness Walks emerged from this idea and thinking about what creates cultures. And is it possible to have a city-wide culture which is eco-centric where people are excited about, are knowledgeable about, are engaging with the biodiversity found around them in an urban space…that’s the challenge…and active about environmental issues, and exercising agency. And not slinking away into life which urban spaces often presses on us. Of being passive, of going to work, coming back, you know, sleeping and eating and all the rest of it. so, the dream of the Urban Wilderness Walks Internship is to try to create a city-wide network of young naturalists, resource people who can facilitate activities around ecology, nature, environment. That they then periodically take people on walks and kind of evoke urban spaces in an entirely different light. That was the dream and it kind of grew slowly. First, it was a few friends…I did it in my apartment…I do it once every few months. Then I asked some friends, who are also naturalists to do it at theirs but that wasn’t kind of meeting what I was visioning in my head. Then, through Madras Naturalists Society, we actually offered it as an internship for colleges. For life science students. One of the things about Chennai is that it does not have an ecology course…Chennai or its outskirts. In fact, there are only one of two places that offer young people a course in ecology or conservation biology or environmental sciences. People often diffuse away to Bangalore, to Dehradun and other places. You know, the aspiring naturalists who want to pursue a career here.

So, the idea was to train young people with the experience, the knowledge, the skills the tools, to be fantastic facilitators…you know, who get people excited about living things and nature in urban spaces.

-Yuvan Aves

4:15

Lalitha Krishnan: Interesting that a state like Tamil Nadu doesn’t offer ecology courses or enough of it as you say. You encouraged some of your students to draft this petition to push for a law for Urban trees and they succeeded. In fact, you shared an (Instagram) story where I think they’ve convinced 600 schools and colleges. That’s amazing. That must have felt very empowering (for them). Could you briefly tell us about this?

4:48

Yuvan Aves: That campaign is part of a Nature Education cum Citizenship Programme I conduct for a school where I’m working for the past three years called Abacus Montessori School. Very fortunately, it’s grounded in the Montessori philosophy. And Montessori is one of those educational philosophers who went through the worst of human history. You know, the world wars and said, “Oh, we need to reimagine education. Children need to be able to think for themselves. They need a variety of experiences. Their experience of learning needs to be uncoupled from the larger market forces.” And these were questions she pondered upon deeply and wrote about them. So, in our school we have this programme for Nature Education right from Primary, you know, the little toddlers to up to Class 12. So, when we come to Class 10, 11 and 12, it’s about citizenship. Citizenship in the way we’ve crafted it for our school means a few things. One is, that children’s learning is in direct participation in matters of society, environment and politics, and governance. In direct engagement with the real world. Not just intellectually or not just in kind of insulated silos. It also means being active and practising action as a grounding and philosophy. Which means a whole range of things you know. Children decide, OK, this is my question, this is my concern, I am going to pursue it. Agency coming from within rather than coming from instruction outside. This is kind of what the Citizen Science Programme holds for children.

Lalitha Krishnan: Alright.

6:47

Yuvan Aves: So, Class 10 children learn RTI (Right To Information). You know, how to file RTIs for the State, for the Centre. And there’s also a reflection into what ‘Freedom of expression’ means. What ‘Active citizenship’ means. What are the different things they want to pursue based on their life experiences and backgrounds? And they use RTI as a medium to explore this whole thing and different modules like that. So, in Class 11, we have something called A Class Campaign. So, children come up with a cause that is local, which pertains to Chennai or Tamil Nadu, and find ways of amplifying it or giving voice to it. Engaging with it in real-time. So, last year, the Class 11 children took up the Save Pullicat campaign. You know, right now, a beautiful lagoon is under grave threat because of a port proposed by the Adani Group. So last year they took that up and they made some beautiful art and they also ran a petition. They had other ways of spreading the message. And, they conducted a press conference in Chennai. And through that, what happened is the message reached a whole lot of people and a public hearing was decided for the port. We know public hearings are shams you know, often in the process of  clearing of wild spaces. They were able to stop that. Because the media took it up…

Lalitha Krishnan: Nice.

8:25

Yuvan Aves: …and the District Collector said something like, “Let’s scrap the public hearing, looks like a whole lot of people are going to turn up; we have Covid issues…” and you know, all that stuff.  And they stopped that and that was such an important thing in the campaign because very shortly later, a few months later, the new government came and they kind of rode on this. 

You vote for us and we will scrap the Adani port. 

It was a win in that sense, you know, a little spanner in the works. 

So, this year what the children took up was… you know, these children have been part of creating a forest in an arboretum in our farm school which we have in Vellaputhur. And they have been to different landscapes around Chennai and India, understanding wild places. And so, one of the things they easily took up was a Law for Urban trees. A little background to that is a lot of states in India have a law for urban trees which means there are trees -very old ones- important for the cities’ health, for people’s health which have a specific law protecting them. You take, for instance, Maharashtra. It has a beautiful law, its implementation is up for question, but there’s a Tree Authority made of people and govt. officials who look at how to create awareness. Who scrutinise projects which want to fell a few thousand trees and so on? There is a Tree Helpline. There is a clause that says if trees are more than 50 years old, they get a label called ‘Heritage trees”. That gives them extra protection.  But in Tamil Nadu, there is no such law. Similarly, West Bengal has, Kerala has, Assam has, Karnataka has.

 In Tamil Nadu, any tree falling outside a protected area has virtually no protection. Virtually no personhood. 

10:25

You know, through my activism work and looking at other movements in this state, if there is a tree law, it protects people and places. For instance, Pulicat. If there was a Tree law to protect the mangroves to protect the kinds of vegetation there-which is very old- it would be an added layer of security for the fisherfolk there.  North Chennai is a watery landscape and artisan fishers are 1000s in numbers who have been living here for centuries. 

Similarly, for instance, if you take the Salem highway recently, which has been scraped in some sense by the new government; but if there was protection for trees…lakhs of mango trees were going to be cut. But if they had protection, far more livelihoods are saved.

If you take the common urban landscape, trees support, protect people. They have a social life in urban society. The iron-walla, the tailor, the cobbler, the auto stand…everything is under trees…the provision shop. So, the children took this up and they wrote a letter and they got endorsements from students from about 100 different colleges and schools in Tamil Nadu. 600 endorsements from 100 different institutions. They’ve written to the Chief Minister, the Chief Secretary, the Principal Secretary of Environment. The media was interested. They spoke to the media and it’s kind of an ongoing process. I’m happy that it’s also kind of triggering conversations in other groups for instance who have been fighting for a cause like this. It’s a kind of coming together and one hope that this will result in a law.

12:27

Lalitha Krishnan: Definitely. That’s great. This coming together is itself a big force if it happens…the voices of many. Moving on, in an article you wrote about coastal sand dunes you said, “Sand is slow water, a patient fluid, which is moved, shaped, folded by wind, waves, and vegetation. It flows over the years and with the seasons, like a current in deep time”.  

I loved that imagery but more importantly, what I didn’t know is the whole significance of sand dunes. That it can create freshwater for one or that sand dunes are even more effective than mangroves and casuarina plantations in terms of protecting coastal communities during a tsunami or storm. How so?

13:22

Yuvan Aves:  Yes, there are studies by Care earth and Feral India which has brought out this truth, you know. Sand dunes are seen often as landscapes that don’t have life. If one were to go with an informed eye one sees so much. I was in a village called Poigainallur in Nagapattinam, a few months ago…in search of sand dunes in fact. Poigai is an interesting word. Poigai means freshwater pond in Tamil; a word which is not often in use nowadays but poigai also signifies an aesthetic water body. Something which kind of has a beautiful backdrop perhaps has lilies and lotuses. It’s called Poigainallur but it’s bang next to the sea. So, one thing that the village is known for and also a cluster of other villages around it is that there are massive sand dunes there. You know 40 feet. You have to climb them like little hills and go around them and navigate the landscape. And the people here have this interesting practice of protecting the sand dunes and letting them revive. If you went and spoke to them, they will say that as long as they can remember, they keep these palm fronds in the direction of the wind and stop the wind. So, sand kind of gathers there and they take palm seeds and put them behind and so they sprout and they grow sand dunes. After storms, after strong weather events, the sand dunes take a beating. They again use this practice to help them recover fast. And the whole aliveness of a coastal dune landscape I was able to see through those people’s eyes. You know, the fisherfolk of that place. And, it’s miraculous, 30 feet from the tide line they have water pumps –from which I have tasted the water—it gives clean water. And perhaps just 200 ft just behind the sand dunes there’s agriculture happening. So, these sand dunes—these are called secondary or tertiary sand dunes– they are massive. Right behind them, there is a forest because the sand has it from sheltered salt-layered winds and it creates a perennial pool. When you walk in such a landscape, the brain is confused because on one side there are waves crashing and on the other side there’s a frog scape. Frogs are calling hardcore freshwater species.

But the deeper hydrological importance of sand dunes or any coastal cities is that sand on the edge of a place actually creates this bio shield from seawater ingressing, you know. Still, water can travel underground into freshwater aquifers and contaminate them and they become unusable. If you look for instance, in North Chennai, where all the large coastal infrastructure has come up because the people here are largely from fisher communities, there is no beach.  If you take archival pictures from British India of North Chennai, you will find there was a very large beach there. There is no beach right now. Interestingly, in 2019, a study by Anna University found that in the whole of India, maximum sea ingress is in North Chennai in places like Ennore and nearby. Sea in some places had come in, crept inside, underground up to 18 km and contaminated water. So, people have had to move from here, build desalinisation plants and so on.

The hope is to evoke the magic of sand dunes. ‘Sand’, the way we use that word is without life but not so. They actually ensure life happens by just being on the coast.

17:46

Lalitha Krishnan: That is so amazing. I really feel like and going and seeing them (sand dunes) now. Tell us about your travels down the Indian coast. Did you do that for two years? I am not sure if I got that right. So, what were you thinking when you began this venture and what did you return with?

18:04

Yuvan Aves: Yeah, so hopefully, I will be able to kind of begin again. On the 20th I am going on a long tour of the southern districts of Tamil Nadu where some very special coastal ecologies exist. And pre-Covid, also I was going to different places on the Indian coast and understanding the places a bit and the people who live there. The idea, the interest in coasts started with our campaign for Pulicat and the hope and the action to save it. One of the things we found was that while campaigning for this place, we did not have enough stories. We did not have in fact, in some places, scientific data and other kinds of things that would evoke this kind of place as beautiful, as magical, as worth saving. So, we had to do that on the go, on the run.

Coastal landscapes exist on a cusp. You know, with changing climate, with seas becoming more unpredictable, more intense, they are the most vulnerable. Coasts and coastal communities. But they are also our first line of defence from climate-change driven consequences and impacts raging in from the sea. 

So, they exist on that cusp on that very difficult cusp. They are on the margins and also coastal communities are marginalised in that sense – in a political sense. That feeling… that intersection of realities during campaigning for Pulicat kind of drove this whole idea. So, what we’re doing is…one is a large project all across the Tamil Nadu coast, again, through Madra Naturalist Society. I work with a team of friends. I should mention their names; we’ve all been equally part of that. Vikas, Ashwathy, Anuja, Nandita and Rohit and myself.  So, people call us the Ocean’s Six and all that. So, whatever time we have, we are on the beach. We are with fisher people; we are at estuaries and creeks and so on. We have finished 1/4th of the Tamil Nadu coast and we are looking at, as comprehensively possible, documenting the ecology and the life there. You know the deep inimitable knowledge of artisanal fisherfolk.

If you come to this part of Tamil Nadu, the north, not the entire Tamil Nadu, there are nine words for winds. Wind speech is so vivid that if you walk with a fisherman elder…you know of my greatest teacher has been Pallayam from Urapukkam village near Adyar estuary.  He can stand there and he is so intensely perceiving the wind. And he can tell you if it’s (the catch) going be mackerel. Is it going to be no catch, is it going to be anchovies or is it good for crabs? (All) by reading the wind.

-Yuvan Aves

That, I have been understanding a little bit but for them, it’s an embodied knowledge. It’s knowledge in their blood. So, local knowledge and threats to this landscape. This is something we hope to do for the entire coast of Tamil Nadu.

As a personal thing, I want to travel to different places in India and collect these stories. I was in Goa recently speaking to fisherfolk in a village called Nauxim. Interestingly, the fluctuation between spring tide and mead tide is called sudthi-budthi. I just hope I am pronouncing it correctly in Konkani. Interestingly, sudthi-budthi is also a reference to our variation in emotion and mood. So, in their speech, the coming in and going out of the tides—the lunar fluctuations—is likened to the emotionality of the sea. And therefore, the sea is alive in that sense.

22:41

Lalitha Krishnan: Beautiful. So, do you think all of your travels, the research and conversations you’re having will one day become a book? Do you see a book emerging from it?

Yuvan Aves: Yes, that is a dream, stories from all around the Indian coast. Of biodiversity, of local knowledge of different threads of a coastal landscape being magical places. Perhaps a collection of essays or perhaps a different form. Of course, there are other people who are doing fantastic work. For instance, Marine Life of Mumbai. Work like those groups… different parts of India. Yes, I do hope it becomes a book in a few years.

23:31

Lalitha Krishnan: I hope so too. I would love to read that one. Yuvan, again, talking about music. You have so many talents.  In 2019, you held a musical concert for conservation where you also performed.  Tell us about your musical interest and the specific cause that you held this concert for?

23:52

Yuvan Aves: I’m a recorder player. The recorder is not a recording device. It’s a musical instrument from Europe. It’s a woodwind instrument seemingly simple to play at the beginning but it gets a lot harder when you progress with it. I started learning the recorder when I was three and a half when my mom joined me for classes. Interestingly, just a note about my teacher who is no more but then I owe a whole lot to him. S Balakrishnan. He was also a famous Malayalam music director. I wanted to pursue this instrument purely because of his own kindness. I was initially learning the piano from him. But he did not know it too much so he said, “See, this is all I know with respect to the piano. I can refer to other good teachers but if you want to learn from me, I know this bunch of (instruments). I know the flute, the recorder,” and so on. So, I happened to tell my mom, “See I don’t care what I learn, I want to learn from that teacher”. And, he was very kind and helped me love music. I have not pursued the piano. I have not pursued other kinds of things I had started learning deep back in childhood. But this, I have been able to pursue till date and I am a music teacher also and that is, of course, thanks to my teacher. So, coming back to your question about the concert of 2019, one of the things I hope to continually explore –of course, Covid got in the way—is to merge music with my work in activism. One opportunity which came by was the move of the Chennai metro to hack down Panagal park. That’s an old park with some very, very old trees—a few 100 of them—for a metro station. A metro station is a railway station that the cream of the cream of society uses. There’s MRTS, there’s Southern Railways, there are four kinds of local railways.  Of course, it’s public transport and I have nothing against that but their siting was in parks. They’ve already kind of flattened two very old parks: Nageshwara park and part of Thiruvika park they have taken over and constructed and those parks have gone. And so, they wanted to take over Panagal park as well.

Panagal park is there as a green lung space, an oasis you can walk into in the most haphazard hectic park of Chennai. Around it is large cloth shops, Saravana stores, Nalli and so on where in fact, the employees during their break, come in here to destress. That’s something you see. It’s an important landmark of Chennai. So, they wanted to hack that down; we were putting together ways in which to stop that. Initially, we took Rober Macfarlane’s Heartwood poem. That’s the poem he wrote for the people of Shielfield who were protesting against the cutting of trees in their streets.

“Would you hew me to the heartwood cutter?

Would you leave me open-hearted?” As if the tree was speaking to the woodcutter who has come to it with an axe. I adapted that poem for Tamil and we made a little animation of it as a way of gathering solidarity with people. And, after that, if you look at music, music comes from the belly of trees. If you look at, for instance, the veena, or the kanjira, if you made it out of the heartwood of any other tree other than the jackfruit tree, it wouldn’t sound the same. It wouldn’t be the veena…its characteristic timbre and tone. If you made the violin from anything else other than spruce or maple or a few other related trees it wouldn’t sound like a violin. Similarly, with all the instruments you hear in an orchestra, the cello, the viola, the bamboo flute… So, music is really as we have known it for all these centuries, is the belly, the hearts of trees singing. So, that was the theme of our concert. ‘Music comes from the heart of trees, let’s save them’. And, there were professional musicians, there were children, there were readings of poetry around trees and it did make an impact along with the other kinds of campaigning work we did. And, right now the plan to hack down Panagal park is stalled. Not shelved but then Chennai Metro has gone silent about it and we are keeping the pressure on so yes.

28:55

Lalitha Krishnan:  Another beautiful effort. Also, I would never have thought of musical instruments like that though we do know they’re made of wood. That’s really amazing. So, you do want to harness the powers of music and use it to propel your activism more in the future.  

Yuvan Aves: We planned in fact, a concert around wetlands in 2020. But that did not come to fruition because of Covid. But hopefully, when things ease up, even more, we’ll be able to do that.

29:27

Lalitha Krishnan: You’re self-educated; you authored two books already, and you’re at the forefront of relevant conservation efforts in terms of educating and engaging. Who or what has been the biggest inspiration in your life? I’m sure there are many.

Yuvan Aves: About the self-education journey itself, I am firstly very, very grateful to my mother whose life has not been very easy but one thing which has been her priority and continues to be is my growth and well-being. And despite all the hardships she faced, she gave me a beautiful childhood in the sense that parenting often becomes about projecting one’s own identity and needs and what one wants to draw from society onto the child. My mother’s philosophy of parenting shifted that and I am very grateful for that. And that’s something I’ve learned from and practised in my work as an educator. She observed me-the child-breathlessly. She would observe with care and curiosity – “What is the energy of this child? What draws him?” And then, she would feed into that. She would go read up, she would go research and she would buy things, create the experiences and that played a very big role for me to grow as a naturalist and in different fields which are not very popular or not too many people are in. Of course, increasingly they are but not as much perhaps.

So, it started like that and I was also fortunate to go into a Krishnamurthy School. First, I was at The School, in Chennai on a very beautiful campus.

And Krishnamurthy’s philosophy was you know, no group or person or leader or spiritual organisation can lead you to the truth. You have to be a light onto yourself. He said, “truth is a pathless land”.

He spoke about the energy to find that which is true or eternal is deeply unique or driven from within each individual, irreplaceably so.

31:51

So, the school’s philosophy was—and I met some amazing people there—who were interested in wilderness and nature who came to teach there. So that was important nourishing soil. After class 10, studying there-because of different circumstances, I did not want to pursue schooling in the conventional sense. One midnight, I went to the Director of my school. I said, “See, at this point in time, I can’t be at home. I don’t think I can pursue school the way I’ve done so far. You know, I have different ideas in mind but I just wanted to reach out to you.” His name is G Gautama and he has been an inspiration throughout. Both his philosophy and his toughness and his different threads of reimagining what education should mean… He would often come and say, “See, I don’t care what I’ve taught you,” -to parents, you know-, “If these three things, children feel good about, my work as an educator is complete. One, they should not contemplate self-harm or suicide. Two is they should be able to walk on fresh paths. They should feel empowered enough to try something entirely new”. And, he had a few principles like that which I am not recalling at the moment. So that fed in a lot into my own strength and my own practices as an educator. So, I went to him just when he has started a new school near a place called Vallipuram, a 100-acre campus in the fields and farmer landscape of Chengalpet.

Lalitha Krishnan: What is it called?

33:35

Yuvan Aves: Pathashalla. And he said, “You come over here, you pursue your education by yourself and we’ll see what we can do”. We’ll see how else you can be involved. I went there for my A levels, you know, the 11th and 12th, the Cambridge syllabus…I did it all myself. So, I would read the books, add questions, call up different people I knew… perhaps teachers in the school or other people who might be able to help me. I’d say, “Hey, I want to clarify these doubts, would you have half an hour in the evening?”

 And then, I registered in a different school, Headstart Learning Centre outside Chennai. So, I would go there to write my exam and go back. The academic part of my education was very, very small. While I was there, I walked dozens of lakes. I have had so many conversations with colleagues, teachers, children, farmers, the Irula community, other kinds of people from the village

I also started doing what they call, ‘subject enrichment workshops’ for govt. schools around Pathshalla which are in a rural landscape and which don’t have much funds. So, our intention was to connect the content they are learning through the state syllabus to their immediate landscape, the biodiversity they see around them. The tools they use, the lives they live. Their landscape. That also went very, very well. I started reading and writing with far more fervour during that time.

So those are some of the people, there are a lot more. For instance, if I look at my activism work, I am deeply grateful to Nityanand Jayaraman, who I consider as my mentor. Right now, he is writing for Kodaikanal and for what Unilever had done there by dumping mercury and so on. That’s shortly how I came away from the conventional path of education and found other things and other people.

35:40

Lalitha Krishnan: You know, I feel you have achieved a great deal in a very short while usually young people don’t usually get asked this but if you had to turn back the clock, would you have done anything differently? Do you have any regrets?

35:54

Yuvan Aves: The thing with regret is that you know, one goes through suffering in life. One goes through difficult times. And a lot of important learning and a lot of growing comes from that. Sometimes when you think behind superficially you want to not have that difficult period, that painful experience. I’ve had, for instance, a very physically abusive father and a stepfather. And, let’s say sometimes when I look back, I want to undo that. But a lot of the commitment, the energy to work with children and to completely rethink education and parenting and just the community children are coming from that difficult experience.

Lalitha Krishnan: All the wrongs… are you sort of putting it right?

Yuvan Aves: Wrong and right is a polar way of thinking about it but sometimes what we hold as regrets were actually triggers for growth and wisdom, and one learns that on the way. I’m glad I don’t have the opportunity to go back and do anything although one wants to. Because those are times that shifted you, which moved you inside.

37:31

Lalitha Krishnan: Alright, thank you for sharing that. Is there’s anything else you’d like to talk about or share (about your work)?

Yuvan Aves: I want to talk about something that will be out soon. It’s something our coastal team is doing for Place-based Education.  You know, if you’re living in Chennai, everything you do from your daily life to your practicalities to your weather, to your occupation is affected by the fact that you are living next to the ocean. And one of the things about a centralised syllabus is that you learn a great deal about the Ganges and the Yamuna, you know? Important parts of India but then you go and ask an average citizen in Chennai or the public, “What are the three most important rivers through Chennai?” You know, cities grow around rivers always from deep back in civilization till now. That’s something we forget. Nobody can name three big rivers. Adyar, Kosathalaiyar, Cooum. It’s not in people’s imagination. Similarly, the different coastal habitats, the winds, the currents…although they kind of affect our daily life, and knowing about it would be important, not just the place but for our own connection with it, and living our lives in touch with these aspects…it’s not there in what children learn in schools.

One thing we’ve done and I want to share the material with you as well, is a set of posters specific to the coast. What lives there. And a little field guide which people can open. Go out there on any Chennai beach, find 100 different things right from gastropods to bivalves, to crab to reptiles, and so on. When you know the names, when you know what to look for, the place comes alive. 

This is something I like to say in different places as well where I speak. Barrenness is always a state of mind never a state of the land. What is barren is our eyes and our imagination. But when these aspects, something like this come into our lives, places can turn magical. 

So, a little field guide for the Chennai coast. By the end of this month, we would have distributed to a100 schools in Chennai. And the hope is to kind of shift the way children experience these places. One of the things I have found as a teacher is …you know, we had the Vedanthangal (Bird Sanctuary) Campaign. That campaign was mostly a success. I’m saying mostly because it has not been cancelled completely you know? The plan is to de-notify the sanctuary for commercial interests to allow big pharma companies to expand. 

I was happy that I had taken many, many batches of children to that place because when that place was in threat, we went into Covid. Schools wouldn’t function. The first module we did was Vedanthangal. And, children sparked up to it like fire. And it was perhaps the largest, most copious art campaign which has been done in Tamil Nadu. Right from 3-year-olds, 4-year-old children you know… Vedanthangal is not just nursery ground for birds, lakhs of birds but also children.

So, taking children to a place and creating connecting experiences is one of the best ways to protect that place for long term conservation because that place begins to speak to them. It becomes part of their lives; it becomes a source of emotional connection. 

-Yuvan Aves

So, this emotional connection we are creating for the Chennai coast would be available for and distributed all across Chennai and people and public and so on. The hope is to evoke these places as beautiful and magical in people’s imagination.

Lalitha Krishnan: That’s great so how do you do this. Do you have sponsors who help you make this happen?

Yuvan Aves: Yes, we’ve been sponsored by the Biodiversity Collaborative to make this material, print them and distribute them. 

41:47

Lalitha Krishnan: OK. I usually ask my guests to share a word or concept that’s related to conservation and holds some significance to them. Somewhere I read you’ve discovered 140 words in Tamil that are related to the landscape and are lost in translation or not translatable at all.  I’d like you to share a few of these lost words if you don’t mind. I can add all 140 on my blog, Earthy Matters if you give it to me for those interested.

Yuvan Aves:

One of my other big dreams hopefully is to create an ecological dictionary-not comprehensive in any sense, but then to evoke the deep reciprocity between language and landscape especially in India.  

-Yuvan Aves

There is a beautiful article that was published by the Pioneers where linguistic diversity- if you look at the world- and biodiversity overlap.

The biodiversity hotspots are also the most linguistically and culturally diverse. I wrote an essay about this with specific reference to India and some of the work I have been trying to do; collecting from different parts, different states. It’s called ‘Speaking Rivers, Speaking Rain’. It was shared widely at the time it was written. 

43:20

If you look at, for instance, one very fascinating example in Tamil Nadu, it’s the word, ‘purumboke’. It’s a word that refers to landscapes which are used commonly. Wetlands. Grasslands. Scrublands. These are places which nobody owns but everybody needs. And, they have very important ecological functions. They’re not allowed to be economised directly or they cannot be. You cannot go to a salt marsh and grow paddy. A salt marsh buffers the ocean’s rage. It protects your hydrology; it is a breeding ground for scrimp and fish and crabs. So, you know, sometimes in the minds of local people ‘commons’ also means a cross-species commons. ‘purumboke’ has the potential of embodying that philosophy. But during the colonial times, that word was shifted into meaning ‘wasteland’ because you could not go and grow things there. You could not have your plantations there. You cannot go and grow casuarina in the middle of the lake for instance. So, this (word) was twisted into meaning land which had no use. So now, it’s a bad word… you know, as a vulgar word you call somebody who is of no use as it were. So, one of the things we are trying to do in Tamil Nadu is shifting the word ‘purumboke’ back into meaning something beautiful. That’s an important story with respect to land words. 

You look at water bodies; the number of words for water bodies. For instance, the word ‘eri’ means a specific waterbody that is sheltered on three sides and is a catchment area on the fourth side which is either facing another larger waterbody or is facing a river basin. Eri also means there is a system of flow and overflow of these eris; because if you look at Kanchipuram. After all the real estate, after all the building over wetlands, there still exists 2000 eris today. You look at the hydrological map in the National Wetland Action Plan of Kanchipuram and Chengalpet, you know, two coastal districts in Tamil Nadu, it’s blue. It’s a watery landscape and people understood that the only way to live here was to leave space for water to flow and create space for it to be and recharge. So, the word ‘eri’; I can’t translate it. I call it a lake but I can’t speak of it in English.

46:01

Similarly, ‘poigai’.  You know, we spoke about poigai nallur. Similarly, ‘kundu’, “kundam…  There is another word called ‘Aazhikkinaru’ which are special sites next to the coasts, very near the sea which for some reason give fresh water. Perhaps, they occur in other states too and these are some I visited. If you go to, for instance, Thiruchendur, a coastal temple, there is an aazhikkinaru there, where there’s an aquifer in the ground, right next to the sea which is giving pure freshwater.

And the beauty of these words is that they evoke land through poetry, through ecological function, through the mystery of each landscape

-Yuvan Aves

…and I have been able to collect this from different states as well.  

46:51

For instance, you go to Dibang valley. They have words called ‘Khinu’.  Khinu means spirit. There is ‘Golo’, there is ‘Khe-pa’ there are different kinds of spirits of the forest. Spirit of the large tree, spirit of the hills, spirt of the landslide, of the house fire… 

In the Mishmi perception of the world, everything is alive. Everything is embodied with spirit and agency, and voice. You go to Sikkim, all the words they have…you know, ‘Lepcha’. It started with my interaction with Mayalmit Lepcha who is protesting against the Testa dam. Teesta for them is an important river because their genesis story starts in the Teesta. The first man and woman were created by ‘The Great Mother, ‘Itbumu’ on the Khangchendzonga. When people die, they believe that their spirit travels along the Teesta and reaches Khangchendzonga again. Their sacrality, their spirituality is geographical you know? That’s the beautify of it.  All their words—perhaps, I can share that essay with you is river-rhyme. T

“To be curved like a river”

“To be turbulent like a river” which refers to your mood and so on.

Lalitha Krishnan: That’s so beautiful…so lovely. Thank you so much.

Yuvan Aves: Thank you Lalitha

48:26

Lalitha Krishnan: I hope you enjoyed listening to Yvan Aves thought as much as I did. Do check out some links (below) on this blog, Earthy Matters. You can listen to Heart of Conservation on many platforms. You can also write to me at earthymatters013@gmail.com  I’m Lalitha Krishnan signing off, till next time stay safe. Do subscribe for more episodes.

Birdsong by hillside resident, the collared owlet.

Podcast cover photo courtesy Yuvan Aves. Artwork: Lalitha Krishnan

Disclaimer: Views, thoughts, and opinions expressed in the podcast and show notes belong solely to the guest featured in the episode, and not necessarily to the host of this podcast/blog or the guest’s employer, organization, committee or other group or individual.

Links to Yuvan’s writings and educational material etc.

Language and Landscape – Speaking River, Speaking Rain – Vikalp Sangam
Journey in Self education and my educational philosophy – The Field of Learning (sanctuarynaturefoundation.org)The Ecosystem of Learning – Vikalp Sangam

Our Educational Material for the Chennai coast – https://1drv.ms/u/s!AnNoDXP8OkoAtFSdiZAgpc7wp_up?e=07RoY4
On Sand dunes – https://www.currentconservation.org/in-search-of-coastal-sand-dunes/
On Pulicat and Vedanthangal – https://www.sanctuarynaturefoundation.org/article/a-pulicat-story%3A-the-lagoon-that-protects-a-cityhttps://vikalpsangam.org/article/vedanthangal-art-to-save/

tamil-words-for-landDownload
tamil-words-for-waterbodiesDownload

When was the last time you visited a zoo? Is it time to rethink zoos?

~ Lalitha Krishnan ~ Leave a comment

A conversation with the Assistant Curator of the Madras Crocodile Bank Trust (MCBT)

Heart of Conservation podcast Ep#23 Show Notes (Edited)

Scroll for show notes. Cover photo courtesy @zoologistambika All photos courtesy: Ambika Yelahanka


I am speaking to Ambika Yelahanka whose has a very enviable job involving lots of animals. Ambika’s has a Masters in Zoo Conservation and a specialization in feline behaviour and reptilian husbandry. She’s the Assistant curator at Madras Crocodile Bank Trust in Chennai. Find out what a day at the Madras Crocodile Bank Trust as Assistant Curator looks like. Ambika explains why enrichment is as important for reptiles as it is for carnivores and other animals. She also tells us why zoos play an important role in conservations and explains in detail about captive breeding. She also regales us with her experiences in the game parks of Africa and has interesting info about volunteering at the MCBT (Chennai) and sound advice for future zoologists.

Some useful link – MCBT website – https://madrascrocodilebank.org/

For MCBT volunteer program info: education@madrascrocodilebank.org

Adoption of animals – https://madrascrocodilebank.org/web/adopt_a_reptile

Photo courtesy Ambika Yelanhanka at MCBT https://earthymatters.blog/

SHOW NOTES (EDITED)

Lalitha Krishnan: Hi there, Thanks for listening in to ep #23 of Heart of Conservation. This is season three and I’m Lalitha Krishnan bringing you more stories from the wild that keep us connected with the natural world.  I am speaking to Ambika Yelahanka whose has a very enviable job involving lots of animals.  Ambika has a Masters in Zoo Conservation and  specialization in feline behaviour and reptilian husbandry. She the Assistant curator at Madras Crocodile Bank Trust in Chennai. Without wasting more time let’s listen to her amazing story.

Lalitha Krishnan: Ambika, thank you so much for joining me on Heart of Conservation. It’s really nice of you.

Ambika Yelankha: Thank you for having me.

Lalitha Krishnan:  So, Ambika tell us why zoo conservation? What inspired you?

Ambika Yelankha: Basically, my inspiration came from my family. My family is not directly involved with conservation but I haven’t ever been alone in the house in a way because my mom and dad have rescued over 200 cats and about  100 dogs. So, from the time I can remember, there have been at least about10 animals in the house along with the humans. So when I selected zoology it was not a big shock to my parents because they knew it was going to be something similar to what I’ve grown up around. That’s why I got into zoo conservation as well. I did do internships in field research and captivity and I fell in love with doing captive work.  Field research is great but I didn’t think that was for me so I did my Masters in Zoo Conservation got into zoos and working here.

Lalitha Krishnan: Such a lovely childhood!

Ambika Yelankha: Yes.

Lalitha Krishnan: What is a typical day at the Madras Crocodile Bank Trust [MCBT] look like as the assistant curator?

Ambika Yelankha: As the Assistant Curator, my day usually starts off with a general check-up round so I go around and take a look at all the animals with the help of keepers. So, keepers will report to me or the curator depending on if there is anything to report or if everything is normal. Since these animals are nocturnal- most of the reptiles that we have here are nocturnal- there is a lot of activity at the night and we tend to miss out on most of it because we are not active at night. So, we do a general check-up in the morning to see if everybody is okay. If there’s any leftover food, any faeces that need to be removed from enclosures… Kind of decide what enclosures need to be cleaned for that day. That’s basically my morning. It takes about an hour to go around and check up on all the animals especially the babies to see they’re okay. After that, we tend to get into food preparation. So, with the help of keepers, we will prepare food for the herbivores that we have. For carnivores it’s pretty much basic food…so the meat comes frozen. All we have to do is thaw it and serve the food. Whereas for the herbivores it needs a little bit of preparation, a little bit of chopping for appropriately sized animals. After the food has been distributed, I do have some paperwork so I get some two hours of paperwork done. Then, if any medical treatments are required, I also assist the veterinarian with any medicals treatments that are required to be done that day. So currently we have an animal recovering from surgery so we have him on an alert watch so we check up on him every hour. If we have any special needs animals as such that will take up part of the day as well.

Lalitha Krishnan: So, you have a full day really. There’s a saying (actually a quote) that if you pet a dog, you have a full-time job or something like that but you have a zoo full of animals and keepers. When you speak of keepers and their wards, how many are you talking about?

Ambika Yelankha: We have about 50 people working as a team here. And all of them are separated into different designations. We have the Curatorial team, the Education team, the Veterinarian team and then Management. Our combined total is 50 but people are divided into four sections mostly.

Lalitha Krishnan: OK. I saw a post where you were proving engaging activity for a reptile. It almost looked like play but of course, it was sort of an enrichment activity. How important is this for captive animals?

Ambika Yelankha: As many people know and it’s one of the reasons why zoos get a lot of negative comments is because you tend to have wild animals that tend to have usually a lot of mental stimulation as well as physical stimulation in the wild. And, when you house them in smaller enclosures -especially in zoos- you need to sort of providing that sort of mental stimulation especially. Otherwise, like all humans, if you’re not active then you tend to deteriorate in your mental health. So that is something that is not been studied a lot in reptiles but is very common for mammals. Zoos actually provide enrichment ideas, especially for cats. You have your ‘carcass feeding’ or a big ball to play with… There’s a lot of enrichment for mammals but people tend to usually ignore reptiles when it comes to this because they are generally seen as lazy but they seem lazy because they need to conserve their energy. They don’t have that much energy as mammals do expend. That does not mean that they do not require mental stimulation and physical stimulation, especially in captivity. So a saltwater crocodiles that can swim from one continent to another continent needs exercise especially when it’s in captivity. Otherwise weight gain becomes a problem. To stop animals from displaying stereotypical behaviour, to stop the decline in mental health, enrichment is provided.

Ambika with her ward. https://earthymatters.blog/2021/08/30/when-was-the-last-time-you-visited-a-zoo-its-time-to-rethink-zoos/

I am now training with an alligator, ‘Ally’. She is the only alligator bred in India, in captivity. So, I do enrichment activities with her and some of our juvenile gharials and also with our commodore dragons. So, depending on the species, the enrichment activities will change. Most of them will include a positive reinforcing stimulus such as food. So, any behaviour I want them to display will be rewarded with food. But if they display negative behaviour there will not be a punishment as such. She is open to display any sort of behaviour she wants but if she wants food, she will kind of do what I ask her to do.

When I’m talking about enrichment in captivity, especially in zoos, the enrichment is trying to get them to how they would naturally. So that is what separates this from circuses because a circus will make them do human-like tricks, jumping through the hoops and things like that. That is not what we are aiming to do. We just want her to swim really fast. Or jump up to get her food which are things that these animals do in the wild. And we just want her to display those same wild behaviour just in captivity. So there is not unnatural behaviour that will be encouraged.

Ambika and Ally. https://earthymatters.blog/2021/08/30/when-was-the-last-time-you-visited-a-zoo-its-time-to-rethink-zoos/

Lalitha Krishnan:  I like the way you differentiated what they do in a circus. You know it is exactly this photograph you had put up on Instagram that made your work so interesting to me. I’m so glad (I saw it). You’ve explained enrichment in much detail. So, one of the most important questions for you and for people who have negative views about zoos, is why are places like the MCBT and zoos important for conservation?

Ambika Yelankha: As manypeople already know MCBT as such has contributed to reptile conservation the most in India. Rom and Zia Whitaker started this facility because the crocodilian population especially the marsh crocodile and the gharial had declined so much, they were about to be critically endangered. Therefore, they started this breeding facility where most of the mugger crocodiles that were bred here were reintroduced in the wild. And that is how we still have a large population of mugger crocodiles in India right now. So, zoos as such, especially those focused on conservation breeding-especially for critically endangered animals- is very essential because one of the most popular stories are currently with critically endangered species is with the right rhino. Where the only last male passed away and the species has been declared functionally extinct. But there are two females in captivity which people are hoping to breed and bring back the species. So, for animals that have been hunted to that extent, bringing them back would only be from a captive place as such. So, zoos play a very important role in conservation breeding. Apart from that, zoos play a very important role in conservation education. I think, pretty much everybody saw wild animals for the first time in a zoo. As a kid, the parents would have taken them to a zoo and that’s where they see a wild animal and you get to learn about an animal that you didn’t even think existed in this world. I think it sort of builds a sort of curiosity.

We have a great education programme at MCBT as well as explaining why reptiles are important. Why you shouldn’t have an irrational fear of them.  Irrational fear of snakes is generational. It’s passed on by grandparents, parents and things like that.  So, if they visit the zoo and we help kind of eradicate that fear, maybe that person will not kill a snake if it enters his house next time. So, we’re hoping that education plays a big role in kind of eliminating fears especially of reptiles and kind of builds that curiosity…okay, maybe they want to join conservation. Because more people in conservation, the better.

Lalitha Krishnan: I think education and awareness makes a big difference. Tell me if I’m wrong but is it more likely that a younger child or a younger person is more likely to be influenced by you than say, an adult who has lived his life in fear?

Ambika Yelankha: Definitely.

Lalitha Krishnan: The last I visited a zoo was in Nanital aeons ago and to tell you the truth I had never seen healthier animals in any other zoo. They also had the opportunity for the public to sponsor animals which was pretty unique back in the day. I believe the MCBT also does that.  But are people as receptive to sponsoring reptiles?

Ambika Yelankha: I think, with MCBT especially there are a lot of sponsors and a lot of people adopting the animals. Because the curiosity for snakes and crocodiles has exponentially grown over the years. And the outreach programmes done by MCBT has really made a big impact. My coworkers travel around the country and visit schools and hospitals to try to bring these species to light. And, they talk about why conserving them and why respecting their boundaries is also very important. So, I think these outreach programmes have played a very big role as well as social media. We have a big following on social media and a big following for our founders as well since they have done great conservation work for the country. They have a, I would say a fan following, very loyal people. So, the adoption scheme is going quite good especially the sponsorships. There are a lot of people who want to adopt crocodiles.

Lalitha Krishnan:  So, are these people from India or abroad mostly?

Ambika Yelankha: Most of our adopters are Indian. We do have a couple of people from abroad. We have a lot of parents adopting for their children’s birthdays. Birthday gifts…

Lalitha Krishnan:  How nice. Very cool. They’re changing the whole mindset.

https://earthymatters.blog/2021/08/30/when-was-the-last-time-you-visited-a-zoo-its-time-to-rethink-zoos/

Lalitha Krishnan:  So, when you’re speaking of outreach and schools, what kind of schools do you go to? Are they private or govt? Or do you cover the whole spectrum?

Ambika Yelankha: I think the entire spectrum is covered. We started with govt. schools especially around Chennai because we are situated in Chennai. It was first initiated in all the govt. schools in and around Chennai and the radius slowly expanded from there. Now we have sister organisations that have taken up/are doing it in different states as well. So we have a bunch of organisations that collaborate with us and do it in the state that they’re present in as in Andhra Pradesh and Karnataka. It started with govt. schools but we started advertising it more on our social media and that got the attention of public schools and private schools as well. We’re now in collaboration with companies that will sponsor our travels and things like that and are going to schools all around the country right now, including the North East especially. Now we’re concentrating on schools and hospitals in the northeast and are hoping that it’ll be fruitful.

Lalitha Krishnan:  So, if some school were to approach you directly you would make a presentation to them too?

Ambika Yelankha: Yes, definitely. Before the pandemic, we used to go to the schools. Any school that calls us, we will happily go and give them a presentation. So for multiple classes, I think my colleagues went every day for two weeks to give talks in multiple classrooms. Snakes, especially are a big fascination. King Cobra always brings out a lot of screams from the children.

Lalitha Krishnan:  But, I bet it’s better than sitting behind a desk and looking at a textbook. That’s cool. So many renowned animal centres around the world like MCBT have breeding programmes that are bringing wildlife back from the brink of extinction like the Arabian Oryx, the California condor or the Amur Leopard. I know MCBT also has great success when it comes to captive breeding. Could you elaborate on that?

Ambika Yelankha: Yes, MCBT started with the goal of captive breeding and reintroduction. That was the main reason why the entire park was built in the first place. The first main species that was concentrated on was the Indian population of crocodiles. India has three species of crocodiles which is the marsh crocodile, the gharial and the saltwater crocodile. So, the main aim was to bring all three back to sustainable population because the Wild Life Act was published, crocodiles were almost hunted to extinction for their meat and their hide. So, after the Wild Life Act was published, hunting them was banned. It was still a big struggle because the population was so fragmented that without the captive breeding programme it would very difficult to bring them back to a sustainable population. Rom and Zai Whitaker started this park where animals and eggs that were collected in the wild- to ensure a 100% hatch rate- collected eggs from the wild and also a couple of animals from the wild. All this with permission from the forest dept., with permission from the state govt. and the central govt. and they were bred here, especially the marsh crocodiles. Once they reached a size and an age where the crocodiles could fend for themselves, they were reintroduced into pre-selected sights. So researchers from MCBT went to these wild sites and you know, did the research and saw what would be the best sites for reintroduction throughout India. These particular sites were selected and marsh crocodiles were transported from here to those sites and reintroduced. Now we have a thriving population of marsh crocodiles in India.

Lalitha Krishnan:  It’s a huge project. Getting so many permissions to start with and to ensure that these marsh crocodiles adapt and survive in so many different parts of India is quite amazing.

https://earthymatters.blog/2021/08/30/when-was-the-last-time-you-visited-a-zoo-its-time-to-rethink-zoos/

Ambika Yelankha: Because the work doesn’t stop after you reintroduce the animals. You have to constantly monitor the reintroduced animals to see how they are doing. Because once you have reintroduced them and they are not doing great and reducing again then your site was not great then you have to change sites again. It’s a lot of work that continues after your animals have left the facility as well.

Lalitha Krishnan:  Right. So, you’re still looking after them for a long time. Being a zoologist can have its perks apart from the obvious one of working with animals. You seem to have travelled/worked in many countries. Tell us about your experiences. I‘m sure the young people who are listening and want to be zoologists will be even more inspired.

Ambika Yelankha: Yes, I ‘ve had the privilege of working in a couple of places around the world. That was mostly during my Master’s degree. During my Bachelor’s degree, most of my internships and volunteering were within India. I did my Master in Zoo Conservation from Manchester Metropolitan University. Through the university…they provided a lot of opportunities, especially since I was doing Zoo Conservation… they had a collaboration with Chester Zoo which is in the UK. I got to do a six-month internship with Chester zoo. So, basically, while most college students go to their classrooms, my classroom was the zoo. So for six months, I had to take my class in the zoo. I had a lot of hands on experience. I got to do my Masters thesis as well at the zoo with some incredible researchers, incredible scientists. People who have been involved with zoos for over 40 years. I got to learn a lot of things.

Along with that, we did have the opportunity to go do a field project as well for which we were taken to Tanzania in Africa. We went to over eight national parks kind of doing research projects.  I selected the grassland density of butterflies. I got to walk around the savannah with armed guards because hyenas were lurking right behind the bushes where I had to collect data. It was an experience that I shall never forget.

Lalitha Krishnan: I can imagine. I’m sure you have some particularly memorable moments which are part of these experiences at the zoo and the savannah.

Ambika Yelankha: When we were in Tanzania we were camping…so, the campgrounds are in the middle of the savannah. So, basically, you’re living inside the protected area. They warn you saying, the animals have become quite comfortable with visitors and do not shy away from entering campsites even if there are people there. So we were always told to be on the lookout. When we were in the Serengeti and we were camping out in the night, a bunch of us girls went to use the washroom and we opened the door and there were three hyenas right inside the washroom. We screamed and the hyenas kind of -I don’t know what the sound was-but I would say, they sort of screamed. They ran in one direction and we ran in another direction. It was almost comical.

Lalitha Krishnan: But scary at the same time. For both animals and humans. Lovely. So, you know, do you take volunteers and what sort of work can someone who wants to volunteer expect to do?

Ambika Yelankha: MCBT has a great volunteering programme as well as internship programmes.  Currently, due to the pandemic, we are not taking any volunteers at moment but we will soon be opening programmes for people. And, anybody from any background can apply for this. It doesn’t have to necessarily have to be a zoology background. You can be from any background if you want to come and work with animals just for a week. That’s also OK. You get to be part of all of our four sections other than the management section. If you’re interested in the curatorial aspect you get to follow our keepers around, kind of observe what they do. And they’ll teach you the ropes of taking care of the animals. If you are more of a people person, then you can always tail our education officers who’ll teach you how zoo education works. How it is talking about animals. There are a lot of myths and false beliefs about animals and how you need to tackle those things. So you can do that. We also have some veterinary students that want to come and volunteer. They get to work with our doctor here and learn how reptile medication works.

Lalitha Krishnan: OK. You said you can be from any background. What about an age limit? Do you have an age limit?

Ambika Yelankha: As long as you’re 18 and above, there’s no upper limit for the age.

Lalitha Krishnan: You might just find me at your doorstep one of these days. So, I usually ask my guests to share a word or a term or concept something significant for them. Would you like to share something?

Ambika Yelankha: I may have just about have a few words (of advice) for people who want to get into conservation and study wildlife. I would say if you have the opportunity and you have the financial aid, please go ahead and spend that to further your education. Otherwise please look into getting internships and volunteering programmes rather than taking out loans. Don’t get into debt to try and get into this field. Because this field will not help you pay your debt back.

Lalitha Krishnan: That’s if you study abroad right? Can’t you study here in India?

Ambika Yelankha: Yes, you can study it here. It’s quite cheap as well. There’s the Wildlife Institute of India, there’s NCBS and ….. There’s ATREE and a lot of other institutions that offer you programmes to further your education while they get you internships and volunteering opportunities. If that is the case, yes.

Lalitha Krishnan: That’s good advice. Thank you so much.  OK Bye.

Check out the useful links provided above by Ambika Yelanka. I hope you enjoyed Episode 23, stay tuned. I’m Lalitha Krishna and you’re listening to Heart of Conservation. You can read all show notes right here on my blog Earthy Matters. If you know someone whose story should be shared do write to me at earthymatters013@gmail.com. Heart of Conservation podcast is available on several platforms so do check it out. Till then stay safe and keep listening.

Birdsong by hillside resident, the collared owlet.

Disclaimer: Views, thoughts, and opinions expressed in the podcast and show notes belong solely to the guest featured in the episode, and not necessarily to the host of this podcast/blog or the guest’s employer, organization, committee or other group or individual