#Travel

The Dynamics of Biodiversity in the Andaman Islands with Herpetologist, Researcher, Author, Nariman Vazifdar.

~ Lalitha Krishnan ~ Leave a comment

Heart of Conservation Episode #35 Show Notes (Edited)

Nariman Vazifdar during a snake rescue.
Littorial forest by Narimam Vazifdar
Tail of a red tailed trinket Photo by Nariman Vazifdar
Photo courtesy Narimam Vazifdar
Andaman Cat snake Photo by Nariman Vazifdar
Andaman Day Gecko Photo by Nariman Vazifdar

Host:Lalitha Krishnan:

00:03: Hi there, I’m Lalitha Krishnan, your host on episode #35 of Heart of Conservation. As usual, I bring you stories from the wild that keep us all connected with our natural world. I’m back after a very long spell during which I visited the Andaman and Nicobar Islands. I still can’t get over those amazing beaches, the old forest and the incredible species that I spotted there. All new to me, but endemic to the island. But the question is, for how long? I can’t think of a better person than naturalist, herpetologist on ground in the Andamans, Nariman Vazifdar, to answer that and more.

You can read his writings on the web, including on ResearchGate, and follow his Insta handle @reptilian_666 to see what he’s up to. And do look out for the transcript and links for this podcast coming soon on my blog, Earthy Matters. Welcome to Heart of Conservation, Nariman. Thank you so much for speaking to me about this. And the ecology of the islands.Ever since you guided us through that beautiful Andaman bulletwood forest by the beach, my curiosity has only grown. ] So since your first love is reptiles, could you enlighten us about the diversity of reptiles found on the island? And first, do tell us a little bit about yourself and about the diversity of endemic species on the island.

Guest: Nariman Vazifdar:

Hi, Lalitha. Thanks for having me on Heart of Conservation podcast.

01:36: Yes, basically reptiles are what, let’s not put it as reptiles, but wildlife. I was really attached to wildlife at an early age. When in school, I joined this program called the Duke of Edinburgh Award Scheme Program, which basically took us outdoors, a lot of outdoor activities, kayaking, camping, and lots of social service fun. And of course, it was just being out there, especially because I was a kid from South Bombay. There is not much greenery where I live.

02:13: As soon as I stepped out of my comfort zone, the beauty of the sea, the forest around Bombay, kind of Lonavala side, and it took over my life, basically. And I saw my first snake, I remember very clearly over there, just whilst we were camping around. And I got inquisitive about this, and it just kind of took over my life slowly and slowly.

02:37: But more interestingly, when my mom comes from a place called Baroda in Gujarat, and I remember as a four-year-old child, she had taken us to this zoo over there, and she knew some of these zoos, and they had got out some snake, I think it was a python, for the kids to touch for me and my younger cousins. And I remember all of us as children were very scared of this. But my mom, for some reason, pushed me to touch the snake, and I touched the snake, and now I think she’s repenting this decision of hers.

03:10: But I basically took over. That’s all I’ve done since 2005. I have been involved in wildlife conservation research, in different parts of India, from Chennai, Bangalore, the Chambal Valley, and a couple of tiger reserves. And now, of course, finally, I live and work in Havelock Island, in the Andaman Islands.

03:31: But what draws me to this place more is, like you said, all the animals are more, because they are predominantly reptiles and less…the mammal diversity of the Andaman Islands is very poor. So, it is predominantly reptiles and more endemic species of reptiles is what we get here.

03:51: There are over, say, 23 species of snakes, of which nine are endemic. But because it’s an island–and island ecology is very different–we have terrestrial snakes, snakes that live on the land. We have mangrove snakes. We have sea snakes. So, like that, there are many, many various species of snakes on the island.

Lalitha Krishnan:

04:14: Wow. I have not even heard of mangrove snakes. Sorry for interrupting.

Nariman Vazifdar:

Yeah. No, no, no. But like, there are… you see them in high abundance. It’s just that people are not getting out there to look for them.So we have 308 islands in the Andaman Islands, and a lot of the islands are undiscovered. We don’t know what is on those islands.

04:38: The north-easternmost island of the Andaman Islands is called Narcondam Island. It is a dormant volcano, or let’s put an inactive volcano. And recently, a snake was found on that island. It’s called the Narcondam cat snake. Not found anywhere else on any other island, or not been discovered yet. So, it’s very interesting. It’s very interesting, you know, how the islands, individual islands have individual kind of small ecosystems.

Lalitha Krishnan:

05:06: That’s so incredible. So, you know, speaking of fauna in general, it’s a well-known fact that introduced species are a threat to endemic species on islands everywhere in the world. So, I just wanted to know, were there any species introduced to Andaman and Nicobar Islands? And what could be, is or could be the consequence of this?

Nariman Vazidar:

05:32: So, yes, of course, invasive species or introduced species make a massive difference to any ecological environment. Not necessarily islands, but islands face it more drastically.

Let’s say the invasive animals that are on the island currently are also due to a lot of the animals put by, say, the British when they took over the islands and they built the penal colony. So, they were only tribes living on these islands initially, the four indigenous tribes, and the British got, say, dogs, which are now everywhere on the island, to give as a gift to the Jarawas, who were one of the tribal communities, to hunt the endemic wild boar off the islands.

06:19: The dogs have now taken over the island, sadly. Don’t get me wrong. I love dogs. I’ve adopted one of the dogs from the beach. He lives with me. But these dogs, let’s say, hunt everything, right? Including the sea turtles. When the sea turtles come up to nest, they not only eat the sea turtle eggs, but sometimes I’ve seen them sadly even killing the female sea turtles when she’s coming to lay her eggs. The baby sea turtles that hatch, the snakes, the lizards. But see, it’s not the dog’s fault, right? We sadly do not have a proper neutering project on the islands. We still have a long way to go on the islands.

06:59: It is a serious problem, right? In a small place like Havelock there possibly could be 700 dogs. That is a lot of dogs for a tiny island. Of course, ecological damage happens.

Yes, the dogs are fed by the tourists, by the locals, but still, it is still a large amount of dogs on a tiny, small little island. But more than that, let’s say the other animals that people think of, but at least these are street dogs. People think all the animals in the forest also belong there. No!

07:29: Also, the British were very fond of game hunting, shikaar, so they brought three species of deer, which are barking deer, hog, deer, spotted deer. Interestingly, they also introduced three leopards to the islands in the hopes that leopards will reproduce and will do shikaar on the islands. But interestingly, the leopards did not survive in the mangrove forest, maybe they got eaten by the tribes. We do not know

…the British were very fond of game hunting, shikaar, so they brought three species of deer, which are barking deer, hog, deer, spotted deer. Interestingly, they also introduced three leopards to the islands in the hopes that leopards will reproduce and will do shikaar on the islands. But interestingly, the leopards did not survive in the mangrove forest, maybe they got eaten by the tribes. We do not know. Out of the three species of deer bark, the spotted deer is the only deer that survived  and is flourishing throughout the islands. Then again, on the island, there is no large mammal, say, no tiger, no bear. There are no monkeys. There are no squirrels on the island. Well, because of this, the deer roam freely, literally eat the undergrowth of the islands and which has more insects, more lizards…which depend on this undergrowth that gets eaten away, nothing survives then.

-Nariman Vazifdar on Heart of Conservation podcast

07:59: Out of the three species of deer bark, the spotted deer is the only deer that survived  and is flourishing throughout the islands. Then again, on the island, there is no large mammal, say, no tiger, no bear. There are no monkeys. There are no squirrels on the island. Well, because of this, the deer roam freely, literally eat the undergrowth of the islands and which has more insects, more lizards…which depend on this undergrowth that gets eaten away, nothing survives then.

08:36: The deer, the spotted deer, one species of deer is basically or literally eating the islands alive. See, there is no food left on the islands. This happens. Smaller island get (lost in translation) completely. The deer does two interesting things: 1: they wade/wait at the shore line. Wait for the tide to come in and hope that some (lost in translation)       will come.

09:02: If that doesn’t suffice, they have learnt…… to swim in the sea. Imagine. Deer. They’re swimming in the sea and going from one island to the other. It is incredible. We’ve seen this while we go diving sometimes.

09:15:A lot of them must be drowning. As conservationists, sometimes you put a heavy heart …….. and say, “Yes, it’s okay if this specific invasive animal doesn’t survive for the better good of the environment.” A lot of people will be against what I’m saying, but I stand my ground to say yes. Sometimes for the betterment of the entire ecosystem, it is okay if these animals are maybe eradicated, send back to mainland, whatever, because once islands lose their endemic fauna, it is not coming back. Right?

09:53: We have lots of (lost in translation). We have a bullfrog. You think it’s a frog, it doesn’t do much. But it grows big. There are scientific papers of (frogs) eating chickens. (lost in translation) You know, I have (lost in translation) of a bullfrog, trying to catch and eat an endemic bronzeback of the islands.

[10:10 – 10:23] So it is only a frog which does a lot of damage.

Lalitha Krishnan:

 Sorry. You saying the frog eating the chicken sounds crazy.

Nariman Vazifdar:

My friends have documented it. There is a research paper on this. Of how invasive—you know–what damage these things do. There are many of them that we do not know, right? Like, we do not really know what cats, and rats, do to the ecosystem.

10:39: I have, my friends who have cats and the cats, when they come to my home, they’re bringing emerald geckos, skinks, lizards, you know, to the house all the time.

Lalitha Krishnan:

See, we don’t see these things.

Nariman Vazifdar:

10:50: Yes, of course.  We live here, right? Long. We don’t go home much. It’s just home now. You know?  So, it’s massive, I am seeing the difference. Forget just invasive species.

11:01: The more construction that is happening over the years has also drastically driven the endemic flora fauna down.

Lalitha Krishnan: It’s so strange. Like you think, uh, you know, a deer is harmless or a cat, okay, only kills rats. We do not think what else it can do.

Nariman Vazidar:

 A lot of countries—for that matter–Australia has a rule. They can shoot the feral cats or kill the feral cats. Right? If we start this in India (lost in translation) We are not open to this right?

Photo by Nariman Vazifdar

11:30: We need to get rid of the cats and the dogs; have this conversation with people who are not thinking logically, you know, it is just a battle, a nonstop battle that people like me have with them. So we just bring this up before it’s never-ending. The topic never ends, right? It’s always nonstop. “No, this is that, but…”

From an ecological, scientific point of view, you cannot… everything can’t be driven by your heart. But, sadly, I agree. You know, but unfortunately for the betterment of the better of the other animals that belong to this place, sadly, a lot of these animals have to be out of here.

Lalitha Krishnan:

But thanks for opening our eyes. Maybe people who make the policies you know, are listening and somewhere as it will change somebody’s mind and they will do the right thing.

Nariman Vazifdar:

12:20: I mean, you can’t force this one on anyone. Including my friends, right? Even the ones that are nature-oriented. Even them. For them, no, this is what it is. Dogs and cats need to be here. You cannot even bring up the deer, you know, or the frogs.  If I say, “Let’s kill the frogs, you know they are invasive” you can see the blood boiling in them when I bring these topics up.

Lalitha Krishnan:

12:41:  Right. Right!  It’s a difficult one. You know, all the locals know you as a snake rescue on the islands. I quote you now, “No rescue is the best rescue”. What do you mean by that?

Nariman Vazifdar:

12:57: So also, yes, I never really did this snake rescue anywhere else that I have lived. Uh, yes. In places where I lived– in smaller places—if there is a snake in someone’s house. Yes. I’ll be more than happy to remove it for them, but I never did this ‘snake rescue’ thing anywhere. It was the same over here. There was a snake in someone’s home.

13:20: I went and helped out, but now Havelock is like a smaller town…a larger village, the entire Havelock. So literally, everyone knows everyone from one snake rescue to the second to the third. Now it has become, everyone knows this, but however, I rather not do this because this is not giving anyone a chance to understand how to live with snakes. Right?

13:46: This place always had King cobras; it always has a lot of snakes. But as we are going, as they say, tourism is a double-edged sword. As tourism is spreading people the locals are selling off their land to hotel chains. Of course, right?  And there are literally maybe over 100 accommodations now or places to stay in Havelock. Plus 40 plus dive shops, over 100 restaurants…  So many of us from the mainland are also living here which basically means more houses are constructed. People are cutting deep into the forest and with that comes … If you’re cutting into the forest there are more snakes entering people’s homes. What tourists are seeing are just the two main roads but there are now a lot of side lanes. I get baffled about where these side lanes are going. I thought I knew Havelock well on all the roads but no.  Every time there is a snake and I go to these places, I am shocked that these houses are deep, deep into the forest. They have cut the forest down. So yes, there is no option for the snakes but to seek refuge in those houses. So now this is what’s happening.

14:58: I basically will not catch a snake or remove a snake unless the snake is in the person’s house. When I say “in the person’s house” I mean literally in their home. If it is in the garden in a bageecha, I will not catch it because that is where the snake is supposed to be. I understand it is a king cobra; it is a highly venomous snake– the world’s longest venomous snake– but there must be some learning curve.  Otherwise, every snake they see it’s like, “Come and catch it.”  

I basically will not catch a snake or remove a snake unless the snake is in the person’s house. When I say “in the person’s house” I mean literally in their home. If it is in the garden in a bageecha, I will not catch it because that is where the snake is supposed to be. I understand it is a king cobra; it is a highly venomous snake– the world’s longest venomous snake– but there must be some learning curve.  Otherwise, every snake they see it’s like, “Come and catch it.”  -Nariman Vazifdar on Heart of Conservation podcast

Andaman pit viper Photo by Narimam Vazifdar

15:26: But I don’t go unless it is in their home and there’s a situation where I have to, I will remove it otherwise I tell them to wait. I will look, keep calm, take it easy and if the snake was in their home, yes, I will go. But otherwise, I don’t.  

15:42: So, what I mean by this is there is no need to catch every snake.  What are we doing with this (snake) right?  Again, snake catching is not a big deal. It is basic if you understand snakes.  I don’t know why people make this big hoo-ha and show about it. You can catch a snake. Then what are we doing with this?  We are relocating them somewhere else. This is not conservation. This is not research. We are literally removing a snake from A and just dumping it at B. And we think that yes, we’ve done a great job; we’ve saved a life but we don’t know if that snake survives well yet where we are literally releasing it.

Then what are we doing with this?  We are relocating them somewhere else. This is not conservation. This is not research. We are literally removing a snake from A and just dumping it at B. And we think that yes, we’ve done a great job; we’ve saved a life but we don’t know if that snake survives well yet where we are literally releasing it.

-Nariman Vazifdar on Heart of Conservation podcast

16:20:  There have been many debates, many scientific papers; research on this; on this trans locating of snakes. They are saying to try to release the snake as close to the rescue site. Now think about it.  Where I live in Havelock; there are king cobras.  Like I said, my problem is not the rescue, it is the release. Sometimes I feel very bad I’m releasing the snake a kilometre and a half away but there is no option, right? Where do I release these snakes with so much construction?

16:50: So that’s why I feel like, if not required, I will not do anything. A lot of times I get calls: “Snake is in the home.”  I say, “Okay give it 10 minutes; let’s see what happens.” And it goes away by itself; there is no need to run, jump, or catch the snake; put pictures or like, free-handle snakes. It is not necessary and this is becoming a massive trend on Instagram now where a lot of the guys, especially in Bombay, Pune, all India, are free-handling. Which basically means picking up venomous snakes with their hands; not using equipment, getting bit on their faces, and kissing cobras. It is not required. There is no need for this bravado, for showboating… Yesterday or the day before, two boys got bitten doing these stunts in Bombay and what happens if they die or lose their fingers. What is the point of this? There is no point in this. Do it if you really must do it. Yes, catch a snake but then go immediately and release it.

17:48: A lot of guys keep the snakes unethically; they keep them in plastic bottles–they don’t release themfor days and they have one thousand excuses for this.

17:58: To catch a snake, it takes two seconds. What I do when I catch a snake is release it immediately and then I go home. I don’t need to take the snake home. I don’t see the value of taking that snake home. Yeah, anyway these are my thoughts and you know and again everyone has different thoughts about this and a lot of people feel that catching a snake is conservation research but it is absolutely zero. I think we are actually hindering it and not really giving it you know, a place to go to actually.

Lalitha Krishnan:

18:30: That’s a lot of new information. It’s interesting but it’s also scary and enlightening. First of all, they have to learn how to catch a snake. I hope they just don’t follow YouTube videos…

Nariman Vazifdar:

18:45: Yeah. that is all easy but you see all these YouTubers picking up cobras, the vipers…  Why would they do this?  Right? You are literally playing Russian roulette. Nothing happens 100 times. Then, the 101st time you could die. You could lose fingers… you know? Why would you want this Cobra?  

19:05 You know, snakes live in sometimes the filthiest of places. Gutters, septic tanks…  and you’re kissing this Krait! No, not on.

Lalitha Krishnan:

19:14: Sad.  So how often do you get called to get snakes out of the house?

Nariman Vazifar.

19:19: Really, luckily, it’s not like a full-time thing.  I don’t want to do that full-time. But mostly, king cobra breeding season is now mid-February to April-May maybe.  So this time these two-three months are more.  Of course, the random one here and there but uh sometimes maybe twice in the day sometimes not a few days… It’s very erratic.

19:49: Interestingly, the snakes that I have rescued from the homes over here are either king cobras or rat snakes. I’ve never rescued a pit viper from someone’s home or kraits. None of that. It’s only been either kings or rat snakes, no other snake interestingly.

Lalitha Krishnan:  

20:06: We have rat snakes here also. In fact, one was on my door trying to get a Whistling thrush’s eggs. There’s no way to prevent these situations in places like Havelock, right? Snakes will go into your house… I don’t know.

Niriman Vazifdar:

 20:21: It’s basic. Doesn’t matter if you are in Havelock or anywhere in the world.  You keep your surroundings clean, keep your litter, don’t keep clutter around, and don’t chuck your organic waste everywhere.  They’re the basic, same rules you follow anywhere. Okay, yes of course, if you’re living in the jungle there is more likelihood that it just comes. But less likely if you keep your place and your area litter-free- free basically.

Lalitha Krishnan:

 20:51: I never thought of a snake attacking your garbage.

Nariman Vazifdar:

20:51: No. It is going for the mice, right? What is going in the garbage?  The mice, the flies then the frogs, right? Then the geckos go for the flies. So prey and predators come wherever there is food right?

21:08: If there is food for say, you chuck some mango outside, right? A rat will come to eat it. Following the rat, maybe a snake will come. Lost in translation….seeing the gecko and a snake another lizard may come. Seeing that a snake may come right? So it’s a circle and if it is near your home why wouldn’t that animal come?

And there are also some wood piles or thin sheets lying around. It’s a perfect habitat for reptiles to live in.  Where am I finding these snakes? Under thin sheets, in wood piles you know because sadly the locals are dumping all these things. So the day before, there was a rat snake under a pile of wood.  I literally removed it from one pile of wood and  I put it in the next pile of wood. Haha, What do I do?  That’s all. Because there is so much clutter around there is no option right it’s the same principle anywhere more clutter around more hiding spots, more prey base, more reptiles.

Lalitha Krishnan:

22:02 Nariman, thanks for that.  Let’s move on.  So have you ever been bitten by a snake?

Nariman Vazifdar:

22:18:  Yeah, I’ve never been bitten by a venomous snake because I always, of course, it’s been lucky, but safety is my priority for myself and the snakes. If I feel like this is… also all snakes don’t need to be caught, like I said. I’m only doing this when it is in a place where there’s a snake in someone’s home. I will not just catch a snake if I don’t have equipment. I will take my hooks, my snake pads, tubes, whatever I need,  I will wear boots. Whenever I need to go for a snake rescue, I ensure I have all my things with me. Even if the locals tell me it’s a non-venomous snake, I will judge it only when I see the snake. So many times, it’s a rat snake and I’ve gone with all my gear and then I pick it up. But yes, because I can identify venomous and non-venomous species, non-venomous snakes, yes, I have been bitten a few times. But there’s not much to learn from getting bitten. That’s why I have to figure out what because, I know for a fact, that it is a non-venomous snake. On getting bitten: let’s say, everyone asks how much does it hurt?  Of course, it’s basic sense. Smaller snakes hurt less; larger snakes hurt more. Like say, if you get bitten by a non-venomous wolf snake, it hurts a little bit.

23:36: Maybe not even, not even one drop of blood will come out. But if you get bitten by, say, a python, it could even tear your skin. You may even need stitches if it bites you back that badly. You know, you could even cut an artery, you know? So yes, it is… even smaller snakes could hurt you. If it bites you and cuts one of your arteries in your hands. Once it’s happened that more than once–and all of us who do this have experienced it– snakes sometimes when they bite us, their teeth break off in our hands.

24:12: That’s why we tell people, if the snake is biting you, don’t pull the snake off. Because A, the teeth break, the teeth will regrow on the snake. But it is painful for the snake.] Understand, even the snake has emotions, right? Just because it’s not like a mammal or a bird, it can’t speak out. It doesn’t mean it doesn’t get hurt. And, more than that, sometimes these teeth break off and they go into our skin, into our epidermis…  And then the small wound heals, but this tooth is left in our hands or feet or wherever in our body. And of course, it’s a foreign body. Imagine a foreign particle in your body now, right? So, your body slowly, slowly starts pushing it out. And, like once the tooth got stuck in my finger hand somewhere, it was when it was coming out quite naturally, it was hitting one of my veins. So, it’s really painful. You know, and then you literally have to kind of dig into it and pull it out. You know? So, sadly, all of this is sad, it happens.

25:13: But like, again, going back to your question, I’ve not been bitten by a venomous snake ever. Again, safety, (lost in translation) It does happen. I have friends who are super careful, more careful than I am.  It does happen that they have gotten bit. It’s also, you get over-complacent, you know, over-confident. You really need to be in the potential, now you know what you’re doing. You’re like, “Ah, I’ll just go and take this cobra out ……… (lost in translation). And that is bad. And that’s where this happens sadly. Right. Yeah. And we are seeing this more and more often lately.

25:47: So like when we go out looking for snakes, this is what we do. It’s called herping. We go out looking for snakes. We do holidays where we just go out to different places– maybe even abroad, or even just in India, trying to find reptiles of that age. Great.

26:04: I mean, I didn’t know snakes could grow their teeth back, but I don’t want to test that. You know, you wrote a book called Turtles, Tortoises and Terrapins of India with Sushil Chikhane. So that must have been a really interesting project. Would you like to tell us some more? And what’s the difference between the three to begin with?

Nariman Vazifdar:

26:29: So turtles.. everyone thinks when they see a shelled animal, it’s a turtle. That is the first thing that people come for. Of course, they like the book. There are three… Let’s put it this way.] Tortoises are land animals. Tortoises: are very basic distinguishing keys. Tortoises have feet because they’re land animals. Tortoises’ feet are like elephant feet, exactly like an elephant’s feet, of course, smaller. Tortoises can also swim in the water, but they can’t swim in the sea or they can’t swim in a river. A little bit, yes. Now we’ve realized that tortoises also are getting bigger. They’re getting into water bodies and floating to certain areas. But in a general aspect, tortoises are land animals. They will drown in extended periods. They cannot be swimming in the sea or in, sorry, in a pond or a lake. They will, as soon as you put them there, they will struggle a bit and they will drown.

27:28: So, elephant feet are tortoises. Turtles are two now. Turtles are freshwater turtles that live in streams, rivers, ponds, and wells. And there are marine sea turtles that live in the sea, of course. Again, these two are different as well. I cannot put a freshwater turtle in the sea. It will die. Likewise, a marine turtle cannot be put into freshwater. It will also be needed. it can survive. Yes, when you do a treatment and all, yes, you can manage to clean it out to do this. But generally, it needs to live in the sea.

Lalitha Krishnan:

Okay. Just like most river fish and sea fish.

Nariman Vazifdar:

28:10: Yeah. Exactly. River fish and marine fish. Exactly. But they are very simple distinguishing features between a freshwater turtle and a marine turtle. Freshwater turtles, in between their toes, have like a duck’s webbed feet. So they have duck-webbed feet because they need to swim in the water, right? So, their toes, in between there’s a webbing and that makes it a turtle.

28:38: A freshwater turtle, a marine turtle has completely different legs, let’s call them legs, structure. They don’t have those toes. They have fins,… flippers. Right? So as you see, it’s a very, very different structure compared to a freshwater turtle.

22:57: The third one, which everyone gets confused about, which is a terrapin, is basically a river turtle that can also survive in brackish water. Brackish water means where the mangrove area, let’s put it that way, where fresh and saltwater meet.  So some turtle species can survive in that water as well. They’re not going in the sea, but they can survive in fresh water and this brackish mangrove area.

Lalitha Krishnan:

29:24: So even in the Sundarbans and all, you’ll find them?

Nariman Vazifdar:

29:28:  Yes. Predominantly, that is correct. In the Sundarbans, there is a specific species called a Batagur baska that lives in that area. Okay

Lalitha Krishnan:

29:36: Yes. So basically, those with feet on land and the rest more or less in mostly water.

Nariman Vazifdar: Mostly water. Yes.

Lalitha Krishnan:

29:45: Thanks. Do you want to tell me more about your project, and your book?

Nariman Vazifdar:

29:52: So, the book was with me and Sushil because I did a lot of… I used to work with Turtle Survival Alliance. I worked as a freshwater turtle biologist and I understood turtles and there was a lack… Always, everyone in the reptile world is inclined towards, say, snakes, crocodiles, and lizards. Very few people are inclined towards turtles. It was the same with me as well. We found turtles boring, snow sluggish, not dangerous, just you know, like OK, whatever. But once I started doing this work I realised that wow turtles are really interesting. They have character. They have personality. They are stunning. Some of the turtles like the one I used to study were called Red-crowned roof turtles or (Batagur kachuga). It is absolutely a stunning animal. The males have yellows, reds, and blues on their faces. It looks like a lot of people have asked me when I showed them a photo of this male turtle in breeding colours. If I’ve painted this turtle.

via www.thethirdpole.net Photo by Nariman Vazifdar
Red-crowned roofed turtle

30:54 It is that vibrant, you know, and a very cool animal. The ecology of turtles, especially river turtles is something else and some of them are giants, like serious giants and just tough to catch. Because, we used to put transmitters, you know, a lot of stuff we had permits for. Sometimes they are tougher to catch than snakes, you know, more tough, you know. So, like we always thought turtles or sluggish. Everyone thinks turtles are sluggish. But when some of those turtles want to go, they are going and you cannot stop them. Yeah, it is mad. It is a very, very interesting area to live in and to understand how this works. So, there was no book like a field guide. You know there’s always field guides for say, birds to snakes. But again, like I said because turtles are this topic of “No, it’s OK, not many people interested,” we thought it is the need of the hour to have a turtle book out there you know. And there are books, there are flip cards but not a lot of field guides which cover even marine species. So yes, it took some time. We did this during COVID, and it took about a year and a half to two years to basically complete this book.

Lalitha Krishnan:

32:11: Fantastic

Nariman Vazifdar:

32:12: It was a fun learning experience as well of course.

Lalitha Krishnan:

32:13 Well, Narman, we are down to question 9. And so, I was wondering if you could share a little bit about the Bulletwood Tree that you know showed us in that forest by the beach. It was just so beautiful. Would you like to give us some information about that? I’m so fascinated.

Nariman Vazifdar:

32:40: Oh certainly. So, the bullet wood tree is a predominant tree of the Andamans. It is called Sea-mahua. It is not the mahua of Madhya Pradesh where you get liquor from the flowers. This is completely different. Even the scientific name is different. This is more of a littoral forest basically which means it grows by the seashore like we saw right? You see the giant trees in the sand. These trees could be 5/600 800 years old, extremely hardwood trees. So when we walk through the forest of Havelock or any of the Andaman Islands, you are noticing a lack of termite mounds. There are termite mounds of course, but a lack of termite mounds considering the fact that this is a rainforest. It’s not a rainforest like say the Western guards of India or South America. But nevertheless, it’s still a rainforest and these trees are very tall like we saw 130- 150 feet tall trees.

33:44 Few termite mounds because the termites can’t fully make holes in these trees. It is very interesting. Forget the living trees; we get cyclonic weather, trees rot, trees fall down. The termites we have noticed… Yes of course they try getting onto the trees. They do get onto the trees but they give up and they go away. I feel that this wood is too hard for the termites to make holes. We get another insect called the wood borer. Yes, that sometimes makes holes, but it is also found in Madhya Pradesh, but not like the damage it does to the sal trees of Madhya Pradesh where it kills the trees. It doesn’t manage it. Maybe it eats into the other trees, which is OK; the coconuts, the supari trees, you know? But I think the hardwood trees of the Andamans are something else.

34:37:  Here, there is also a wood called superior wood. You know like we were taught of hard softwood hardwood. There is superior wood you know which is extremely hard where you can’t put a nail into it at times easily you know. So even the sea-mahua or the bullet wood which is called, initially they would burn the base and cut it with an axe. Now they use a chainsaw. The chain saw takes a couple of hours to cut a tree you know? It is incredible. But also, I read somewhere that when the British … the tribes… of course the history of the Andaman, sadly is not nice. It is very you know…  a lot of unfortunate events that led to the British being here, or them treating the tribes very ruthlessly. Japan was here. The same kind of history again repeated itself. But interestingly the tribes had laid a trap for the British and someone told the British about this trap. If the tribes imagine if the tribals had won this battle against the British we may not have been here right now, right?

35:44: History would have been different, yeah. But apparently, they made shields out of this wood. I think I read some of the old books somewhere. They made shields out of the tree and they thought that it would stop bullets. Of course, it can’t stop bullets. It can’t stop cannonballs. So, the tribe literally got decimated in this action. But interestingly, it could also be called the Andaman Bullet Wood because they thought that it could stop bullets.

Lalitha Krishnan:

36:11: Having seen the tree I am in awe of it.

Nariman Vazifdar: 

36:15: Yeah.

Lalitha Krishnan:

36:18: Nariman my last question to you and I ask this of all, my guests is, do you mind sharing a word or a concept or you know, that will help us that’ll add to our understanding of the ecology of the Andaman Islands.

Nariman Vazifdar: 

36:34: Yeah, so like it’s the same thing. Like not just the just let’s say that’s not the Andaman Islands. The change happens in islands, not just with the flora, but with the fauna happening at a faster rate than in mainland any larger space, right? So, let’s just put it like I said, the problem with let’s say Havelock is it is a touristy island. The only source of income that the Andaman Islands as a whole has is tourism. But sadly, we don’t have sustainable tourism on the islands. There are rules, there are regulations, but again, it’s India…we don’t really follow any of these things. A lot of resorts are now claiming to be eco resorts and green resorts, but it is not possible. It is not humanly possible to have an eco-resort without, you know, damaging the environment. So, this is just like a little thing they put up, put a nice website out and say we are an eco resort and we are saving the environment. But actually, none of that exists,

37:48

Not just here but anywhere, even just say Tiger resorts right? Where everyone is claiming to be an eco-resort, it is not possible. We generate waste, we consume electricity. You know, it is not possible to have an eco-resort basically around us unless you are using solar panels, you are doing water harvesting, you know you’re putting groundwater back, you know you are not creating any waste, which is humanly not possible if you are running a property. Basically, no matter what, all the resorts, no, no resort, all the resorts will tell you all the big resorts will tell you that “we are doing eco management and waste management.” It is all just rubbish, sadly.

Lalitha Krishnan:

38:28: I can imagine.

Nariman Vazidar: Yes, of course, islands get… Now sadly, where was this? Where do you think this waste is going? Right? Island ecology gets damaged very fast. We are not seeing this race. I myself am producing waste, right?  We are cooking. I have a dog. He needs milk. It needs XYZ Right? Even myself, right? We all have to buy stuff to survive, right? So, on a small island with a population say 5000 living over here, now so many of us characters from the mainland live here permanently. Plus there are some 3-4000 tourists a day on this island.  So, if 3-4000 people plus 15,000 or 10,000 people need to eat every day, imagine the waste of 10 -15,000 people a day on 135 or 113 square kilometre island? So now we have a dumping yard, a landfill on an island, imagine? Where they’re just, we’re just burning the waste. It’s like when facilities are poor, infrastructure is poor, right? I thought that the hotels would come up, you know, take their waste back, do something. But no, sadly, no one does these things, including the big chains, Forget the small boutique resorts and the big chains do not really give a *&^. Like, the small ones are really not bothered about anything.

39:51: So this is what happens, right? Like, as a tourist, you are not seeing the impact that tourism has. Don’t get me wrong, everyone’s income depends on tourism. But there is a way of doing this where – see like in a tiger reserve right? They have only XYZ numbers.. like so many numbers of jeeps can enter. The tiger is yeah, one time had a system like that somewhere, you know where you only have so many people on an island per day. Let them stay longer– absolutely fine. But don’t have so many ferries coming in and out like groundwater. Why? What is the natural resource of an island? The freshwater we have, the fresh water is already getting depleted, right? We are seeing tankers come to Havelock already right? This is so– where I live– is a little bit low lying. The mangroves are 20 minutes away from me,

40:44: Yesterday when I came back to take a shower, I could smell the mangroves. You know, like in the kitchen, you know, it’s like that ammonia water, that nitrogen fixation that the mangroves do. You can smell it. And it’s not summer, summer. Summer just started. But now the islands are not getting a break? After COVID, all the hotels are doing this, not giving the island a break. Greed sadly has become a very big part of the islands where everyone is opening… Hotels are opening as we speak… so groundwater gets tapped, and water is getting reduced. It will become a problem later on in life, which a lot of these people are not seeing right now. Havelock is blessed. We have waterfalls, we have streams, but right now it’s all dry. There is not too much water because yeah, the water is drying out, absolutely. The waterfall which I went to last night is completely dried out. There’s no water.

Lalitha Krishnan:

41:45: That’s depressing. We don’t see all this. Thanks for opening our eyes. I have one more last question. You know, you also spoke up about diesel buses when we were there.

Nariman Vazifdar:

42:00: Yeah, so, the main grid of the island is a diesel generator. But now we have electric buses over here. So the diesel generator–they burn diesel to convert it into electricity to run the electric bus. It is the most absurd thing. This is sustainability apparently. This is what and this is just like done and like there is –no everyone here just thinking this stupid thing to do, right? So, we have local buses, you know? There are local buses, and local transportation. Why burn diesel to convert it to electricity to put it in electric buses and say that we are doing “green” or whatever the rubbish that is called? You know?

42:47: It’s like this is the thing that we are doing just for the namesake of doing it. We are lost in translation. So now, of course, there should be a bus, a charging station, a bus. You know, all these things have to be put up on the island now.

Lalitha Krishnan:

43:00: Food for thought. Lots of food for thought. Thank you so much.

Nariman Vazifdar:

43:06: My pleasure.

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Birdsong by hillside resident, the collared owlet.
Photos Credit/Courtesy: Nariman Vazifdar. Podcast cover/label design by Lalitha Krishnan

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Is Tourism Taking a Toll Despite the Best Travel Practices?

~ Lalitha Krishnan ~ 1 Comment

Episode #29. Read or Listen. Show notes (Edited)

Introduction.

Hi there, I’m Lalitha Krishnan and you’re listening to Season 4, Episode 29 of Heart of Conservation. I bring you stories from the wild that keep us all connected to our natural world.

It’s so easy to book a ticket and fly out to most destinations. But Imagine what it takes to make a place, especially a high-altitude desert in the Himalayas sitting at  11,980 ft viable for tourism. To be able to involve the community, to be constantly successful and get world recognition for it. I’m speaking to Ishita Khanna who manages to do just that. Ishita is a brave and humble hero in my books. One of the pioneers of responsible tourism in Spiti Ishita is better known as the co-founder of Spiti-Ecosphere, a multi-award* winning eco-tourism enterprise located in Kaza,  in the Spiti & Lahaul district of Himachal Pradesh.

Having visited Spiti several times I am constantly drawn back.  But obviously, I’m not the only one who thinks it’s a go-to place. We all know revenge tourism is a thing right? But Is tourism taking a toll despite the best travel practices? That’s what I’m here to find out. Do check out the Spitiecosphere website for their diverse travel experiences.  Now, let’s find out hows it’s done right.

1:25

Ishita welcome and Thank you so much  Ishita for joining me on Heart of Conservation.

Ishita Khanna: It’s lovely to be here. Thank you, Lalitha for calling me

Lalitha Krishnan: Ishita,  you have been in Spiti since2002 and the sea buckthorn of all things which is a superfood berry led you to Spiti the first time over 20 years ago and you’ve been there ever since. Tell us about that and how Ecosphere came to be.

Ishita Khanna: it’s been quite a journey. As you mentioned right now, I came in the year 2000 and I was working with the state government of Himachal Pradesh. At that point in time, I had come to assess one of their projects which is when I discovered this super berry-seabuckthorn. It had hardly been discovered then. There was very little research and work and I was really in awe. China had done lots of work on it and I felt India was losing out and there was so much that could be done as a livelihood source as well as…it’s got immense ecological as well as medical benefits. So that’s what really got me to Spiti and I started working here in 2002. That’s what started my whole journey to Spiti. I never really thought I’d be spending so many years here. But then, once you start living in a place, you start understanding the place, understanding the people, understanding the challenges that are faced there. One thing led to another and I’m still here 20 years hence.

3:05

Lalitha Krishnan: hard to imagine. It’s a long time but such a fruitful time. Ishita what was it like then and what has changed in terms of infrastructure and tourism?

Ishita Khanna: Spiti was a very, very remote valley when I first came here. In terms of road infrastructure, it was bare minimal. There were two access routes. One is via Simla and one is via Manali. The Shimla road was known as the world’s most dangerous route and the Manali to Spiti road is still perhaps the world’s worst road. It was very difficult to get into Spiti. It was easily a two to three-day journey from Delhi or Shimla just to get into Spiti. So as a result, because it was cut off in a remote part of Himachal, very few people knew about the existence of Spiti over 20 years ago. Now, of course, it’s on the tourist map and it’s on the radar of every traveller, every domestic traveller in India. But back then, very few people knew about Spiti when I first started working here. People thought it was a different country I was working in. Back then, there was no internet or hardly any phone connectivity. So yes, infrastructure was very limited so now, of course, 2o years hence a lot has changed. The Shimla road is a lot better so it’s slightly easy to come in and out. Slightly easier. Still takes quite a bit of time. And now, finally, we have internet in Spiti. Just came in 2021 almost 20 years hence. Working without the internet had been quite a challenge. So yes, a lot had changed. The tourism infrastructure has really developed in a large way. When I first came here, there was just one guest house in Kaza. Now there would be over 100 guest houses. And every house would be a homestay you know? So, a lot has changed since then.

5:10

Lalitha Krishnan:   Do you see a difference in the type of tourists coming to Spiti? Especially post-pandemic?

Ishita Khanna: Yes, that’s something that has changed and I think anyone who is associated with tourism and is working in the tourism industry is now a bit baffled with the kind of tourists that are coming in. It has changed a lot, post-pandemic. Immediately after the 2nd wave, we had kind of like, revenge tourism coming in. People were kind of holed up in their houses for a long time so we had a lot of boy gangs coming in on a kind of revenge kind of a thing and of course, not the most culturally sensitive kind of tourists. Before COVID, we had very diverse kinds of tourists coming in. Now that has changed. So, we’re not getting the kind of tourists that we were getting earlier. So yes, we feel a huge change in the kind of traveller that comes in post-pandemic you know? The kind of diverse backpacker, the slow traveller that was there, both domestic and international pre covid has not picked up. It’s the packaged tourists. A foreign tourist is very very limited. They’re still wary of coming into India. It might pick up only in 2023. You know the quality backpackers, the European backpackers that come in, that haven’t picked up as yet. Even the domestic traveller..they’re more the really crunched up packages, fast-moving packages…eight days and six days.. and you cover the whole of Spiti kind of thing. So that’s the kind of traveller that’s coming in and unfortunately, not very culturally sensitive or really wanting to understand the place. It’s more about clicking selfies and posting on Instagram kind of.

7:30

Lalitha Krishnan: I think for international tourists, it’s also visas and the price of flight tickets has just escalated. Visas are not being issued. There is so much uncertainty for them to invest in a holiday where there’s no guarantee to even reach…now because things are just difficult.

Ishita Khanna: Yeah

7:53

Lalitha Krishnan:

What do you think tipped the scales for Ecosphere? What initiative or practice that you adopted made it such a success story?

Ishita Khanna: It’s been a journey and it’s been challenging over the years as well. You know we started as a typical NGO in terms of grants and donations coming in. Somewhere along the line, we realised that it’s not very sustainable. Especially when you’re working in a remote area like Spiti you know, to be dependent on an outside grant coming in? That’s when we started looking at a model of social enterprise. Where we can try and self-generate our income which would then go into projects that were a requirement and need in the area. Because, if you’re dependent on grants and donations coming in, then it’s often hard to find donations for things that are required on the ground. Everyone has certain specific areas that they want to support but that might not be a need or a requirement in Spiti.

So, that’s what led us to look at a social enterprise model which would then, you know, give us slight independence and sustainability. The first project that we worked on was the seabuckthorn and then we started looking at tourism. How could we ensure that the tourism coming into the valley could benefit the area and the local community you know? That it won’t go out and destroy the cultural heritage and the natural environment. So, we started looking at that and that’s when we developed homestays. Now of course the homestays have really picked up across Spiti and they are doing very well. And, they’ve become a direct source of income for the local community.

9:44

Usually, if you look at most tourist destinations, you’ll see guest houses coming up and it’s usually the richer person in the village who can afford that guest house. So you know, it just creates a larger divide between the people that have the money and the people that don’t. While for a homestay, you can just start a homestay, just a spare room is required. Rich or poor, anyone can people coming in and stay and hence, earn a livelihood from people coming and staying. That model really picked up and has spread across Spiti. Like I was mentioning earlier as well, in Kaza as well, every house is a homestay. In that sense at least the money is going directly to the local community- the residents of Spiti. And, when we started working on tourism, we were in touch with travellers to promote the homestays. A traveller of course wants to experience the homestay but not necessarily every day of their time in Spiti. So we developed entire programmes around these homestays and started marketing that so that people would get to know about homestays and start going to these homestays. In the process, that basically became our enterprise model as well where we started generating some amount of revenue through that which then helped us support other different projects that we were working on the ground in Spiti as well. So, that’s how our transition happened as well. And now, we’ve been working and operating like this for over15 years now and yes, it’s been working pretty well for us. Now the projects we feel are of relevance, we can support those and replicate those across Spiti.

11:39

Lalitha Krishnan: That’s really been a great journey. Even in Uttarkhand, almost every home has a homestay.  If you drive down a road, there are homestays of all sizes… I too feel that it gives tourists a different cultural experience compared to a standard hotel. Regardless of the class of the hotel.

12:09

What are the challenges you face today that perhaps weren’t such a big deal before? How do you mitigate those?

 12:16

Ishita Khanna: if you look specifically in terms of tourism, for instance, there are a lot of challenges now. I  mean if you don’t look at Ecosphere-specific but you look at the region-specific, there are a lot of impacts that are having now on the area because Spiti suddenly opened up. It suddenly came on the radar of a lot of people so in the past 4-5 years we’ve had a huge influx of travellers coming in and of course with that, there is a huge amount of garbage generation that is happening in Spiti. And, the garbage dump which was a small tiny little thing has grown into a humungous garbage dumping area which is very sad to see. The other thing now which is becoming a challenge, especially in the urban centres which are the tourist hubs, is water. This year was really very bad in general for Spiti in terms of water. We didn’t have adequate snow so the crops practically failed in most of the villages of  Spiti. To top that up, we have a huge influx of travellers coming into Kaza. As I said, we have 100 hotels now which are all very water-intensive hotels. So as a result, there is now no water in Kaza. In the supply line, there is hardly any water coming in. Every hotel has to buy water which comes in from the neighbouring villages. If you happen to have a vehicle you send the vehicle up along with a tank every day just to ferry in water. And some hotels have to do this four to five times a day just to bring water. So this is a huge rising challenge in Spti because even though the government has plans of tapping into the groundwater but the point is that even if they do that it will be a temporary solution to the water problem. Because, eventually, the groundwater will deplete because at the rate it’s being sucked out we will not be able to recharge it because we are not getting the kind of snow we used to get in earlier years.

14: 35

Lalitha Krishnan: Most of the villages don’t have piped water. Right?

14:43

Ishita Khanna: yes, none of the villages has piped water. In Kaza as well it’s only the hotels that have a piped water supply coming in. Till now, the homes don’t have piped water. They still have like common spaces where you fill up your bucket or you fill up your can.

15:07

Lalitha Krishnan: I like what you do at Spiti Ecosphere in terms of encouraging people to bring refill bottles and you supply water. Is that still on?

15:16

Ishita Khanna: Yes, that is still on. We set up water refill points at some of the key destinations of Spiti as well. We’ve been offering free filtered water for donkeys of years, maybe 10-12 years now at Sol café – A taste of Spiti, in Kaza. We’ve had a lot of people coming in to refill the bottles, especially international travellers because they are more sensitive to these issues as opposed to domestic travellers even now. They do come regularly to fill up. We also set these (refill points) up at Key monastery, Dhankar monastery and up in Komic which are visited by travellers to try and encourage travellers to refill as much as they can. Then, in 2017 we set up a huge life-sized installation made of plastic bottles called ‘I love Spiti’ to try and raise awareness of this rising issue. It’s an ongoing challenge, it’s an ongoing issue and there are people now as well working on issues like these to try and sensitize the traveller about the impact that they have. But still, it’s a minuscule number of travellers who are actually conscious about their footprint. Most don’t really care about garbage or…

16:47

Lalitha Krishnan: But the very fact that you’re doing this…simple and generous idea… that you’re letting people refill, that itself should tell them something. They should see that one-time plastic bottles are not welcome in the desert at such high altitudes that too.

17:09

Ishita Khanna: It’s a kind of mindset, a kind of background.

17:14

Lalitha Krishnan: (You won the Sierra Club ‘Green Energy and Green Livelihoods Achievement Award’  in 2009 and the Virgin Holidays Responsible Tourism Awards 2010 for Best in a mountain environment?) You explained how you went from being a donor-supported to a self-supporting organisation.  Today as we speak, how many villages/lives are impacted by Ecosphere’s initiatives?

17:33

Ishita Khanna: we have been working on different initiatives in Spiti for the past 20 years and it’s been a gradual journey for us as well. We started with seabuckthorn and went to look at community-based tourism and responsible travel. From there we started looking at some of the other challenges in Spiti. For instance, it gets very cold here in the winter months. Temperatures dip to -30 C  here and you have to burn a lot of wood to stay warm. So, we looked at how we could use the sun’s heat and solar passive techniques. So we adapted their winter room so that they could heat up using the sun’s heat. We also looked at solar electrification because there’s a lot of sunshine that we get here, even though it’s very cold. We looked at how we could use the sun’s warmth to grow vegetables so we developed local mud greenhouses. So, you know over the years, we’ve looked at various challenges and how we can solve them.

18:38

Another one of the problems we’ve been working on recently is to do with water and climate change. The groundwater is depleting, the springs are drying out so we worked on building artificial glaciers and contour trenches to trap as much of the surface runoff and the snowfall to try and absorb it into the groundwater so we can try and recharge these springs which are the lifeline of most of the villages of Spiti, especially the highland villages.

Water is a big challenge as I mentioned, especially drinking water in the winter months. you know, because of springs drying out, they are also now freezing up in the winter months with reduced flow. As a result, people have to walk more just to get drinking water. So we are trying to tap into springs which have a good flow—usually close to the river bed—and pump that water up to the village. Otherwise, it’s an arduous journey down for local communities in the thick of snow just to get a 20 L can up on their back.

19:47

Over the years, of living there you understand what the challenges are. Another one of our initiatives is to do health care.

We started working on oral health in Spiti and just recently we did an assessment in one of the schools. We were thinking of putting sealants onto the kids’ teeth to prevent caries/cavities from setting on to the permanent teeth. Unfortunately, that can only be done on caries-free teeth. We assessed a local school and out of 60 students, only two were cavity-free.

20:35

In young kids nowadays you can put what is called sealants onto the tooth so that it creates a layer around the tooth so that the child’s tooth does not develop a cavity but it can only be done on cavity-free teeth. We held a camp recently in a school and out of 60 kids, we assessed only two kids who didn’t have cavities or caries in their teeth.

So, oral health is bad so now across Spiti we’re holding a free dental camp and we’re going from village to village because it’s such an ignored area. People just ignore their oral health. They don’t brush their teeth. Brushing twice a day is unheard of. Brushing once a day is unheard of. People might brush their teeth once a month at times or not at all. So by the time they reach 40, their teeth have all fallen off, because, they don’t give any importance to it and it just decays and the tooth has to be taken out. People in their 40s now require dentures, unfortunately.

21:45

Lalitha Krishnan: I guess if we had to carry our water to brush our teeth every day and hike two miles for it we might be also as casual about our oral health.

21:53

Ishita Khanna: Right, we could associate with that but yes, over the years we’ve been working on a wide range of issues and initiatives. And Spiti has a population of about 15,000 people now spread across about you could say, 65 villages. Each one of our initiatives has impacted the population in one way or the other.

22: 32

Lalitha Krishnan: Right. How can we as individuals be better tourists? There is no ideal.

22: 38

Ishita Khanna: Ideal is a very difficult word. There is no ideal tourist or an ideal person. We are all on a journey. I think in general if a traveller can, to sum it up, be a responsible traveller – to be responsible about the way you travel, to be sensitive, I would say. Be conscious of the impact you leave on the place. How much are you taking out of the place, how much are you giving back, you know? To try and create a kind of balance with that I would think.   

23:17

There are a lot of conscious travellers out there who really are mindful about how much garbage they generate when they go to an area, they try and minimize that. Even simple things like what we’ve been trying to do are encourage travellers to refill bottles. To try not to buy so much of plastic bottles. And if you do buy bottles and chip packets and things like that, be slightly more mindful as to how you throw it. A lot of us Indians unfortunately think that the entire roadside or the entire Himalayas or wherever we travel, we can dump our garbage anywhere. To be slightly more mindful as to where you dump it.

24:05

In Spiti,  I tell people  “Carry your  garbage out with you.” It’s not always possible but “At least find a dustbin and dump it in that.”

24:18

Lalitha Krishnan: Right. What about tourists’ interaction with locals? Is there something that needs to be improved or are they good about being respectful of locals?

24:34

Ishita Khanna: I think that is also part and parcel of how one can travel slightly more mindfully. OK, there are different tourists around. Some people are interested in local culture, some people are not. Even if you’re not interested in local culture, you can at least not disrespect the local culture. So, at least try and be mindful of how much noise are you generating. Do not be rude to people from that area.

25:06

              A lot of people of course would love to interact and hence people like that go to homestays and that’s a very enriching experience because you’re staying with the local family. They’re hosting you and people in Spiti are very, very hospitable. But not everyone wants that experience. I feel that even if you don’t want that experience, if you’re interested in local culture and things like that, please be respectful. Don’t be rude, don’t be loud.

25:37

Lalitha Krishnan:  Do you think community and government inputs are required in initiating, low-impact tourism? We only have suggestions. Do you think we need more laws perhaps instead of just signs?

25:56

Ishita Khanna: Yes, I think, there are policies and laws in place but there’s very little implementation of it. Definitely, I feel these policies and laws could be enhanced. For instance, in places like Himachal, they have a common policy for homestays. It has to have a room with a common toilet with hot and cold water. But in a place like Spiti, that’s not contextual. If you’re going for a homestay, you’re staying in a local person’s house, they don’t have common toilets themselves. So, to expect them to provide an attached toilet which has running water? In the houses, they don’t have running water.

26:41

Traditionally in Spiti, they had dry composting toilets. You’re forcing them to convert to flush toilets when there’s not enough water for agriculture here. So definitely, policies like these definitely need to be looked at contextually. They need to be developed more contextually.  Of course, there are signboards that you see all over the place but how many travellers really look at those signboards that are telling you to travel in a certain way? ‘Don’t’ throw your garbage. I mean, there need to be amenities that we provide, right? O.K. Yes. At one level, you do need to raise awareness, at another level you need to have facilities which are well maintained and that travellers can use regularly. Be it for dumping garbage, be it public utilities like toilets. Water refill points, you know? Places like Himachal should have these all over. Or even in the hills, it should be everywhere that it’s a norm that one refills a bottle as opposed to buying one. The thing is that for a traveller if they are given a choice, and with a lot of drilling into their heads, they would finally start using these facilities. But, these facilities aren’t there and they aren’t well maintained.

28:03

Lalitha Krishnan: Right.  Ecosphere is part of several networks like the Green circuit. Could you mention some more groups Ecosphere is a part of and what you achieve by working together?

28:19:

Ishita Khanna: Yes, many years ago we were part of the Green Circuit. The idea basically was, that it was travel enterprises similar to ours who were trying to do travel differently, in a more responsible, mindful manner. And, we felt that if we join hands, then we’d have strength in numbers. Otherwise, it’s like just one person working in one remote part like us in Spiti or another person working in some remote part in Nepal, another one in Kerala, another one in Orissa… So, we felt we could share our learnings and challenges and also try and join hands to try and market these various initiatives and trips that we had on a common platform.

Lalitha Krishnan: OK.

Ishita Khanna: So that was the idea which initially led to the formation of the Green Circuit but it’s been challenging in itself. Especially also during the Covid pandemic, to stay in touch or to have regular meetings and updates, and things like that. We haven’t been able to as such travel to the different areas or do it at the level we wanted to.

Lalitha Krishnan: Understandable.

Ishita Khanna: so definitely, these kinds of platforms are useful, are very useful but the pandemic has had its impact on anything related to travel or collaborations like these.

29:56

Lalitha Krishnan: True. Now I’m going to ask you a personal question but I sort of know the answer seeing how happy you are.  How has living and working in Spiti changed your life after all these years?

30:09

Ishita Khanna: For me, it’s been a way of life you know? Because I came here when I was very young and I was never ever enamoured by city life and a regular 9-5 job. So, when I did get the opportunity to come and work in Spiti, for me, it was something I always wanted to do, in the hills. I think working here for so many years, it’s taught me a lot definitely. There have been a lot of challenges along the way, especially working in a place like Spiti, so far away with such limited infrastructure. For me, I think it’s made me into a much more patient, and humble person. For me now, going back to the city now…I even imagine life, living in a big city. So yes, this has become a way of life for me and it’s definitely changed me into becoming a better person. You don’t take things for granted which one often does in city life. Especially at least you take basic amenities for granted. Out here even those basic things are a luxury. It’s very common here not to have electricity here for days on end or water. So, you adapt and develop patience…

31: 29

Lalitha Krishnan: What? Swiggy hasn’t reached Spiti as yet?

31:32

Ishita Khanna: No, no Swiggy! Internet just came here last year and that in itself has changed things drastically.

31: 41

Lalitha Krishnan:  I think you live a very simple but fulfilling life. Of course, it has its challenges. My last question to you and I think this is important. Could you share a term or a word or a concept that’s important to you and perhaps improves our understanding of what you do?

32:03

Ishita Khanna: It’s hard to put it all into one word or phrase.

Lalitha Krishnan: it could be either a word or a concept or even just what you believe.

32:12
Ishita Khanna: I feel as individuals, as humans, as travellers, we need to be mindful, basically.  Mindful of our day-to-day actions that even encompasses when we travel. It all just boils down to trying to be a better person. That only comes from mindfulness. Being aware of the impact that we’re having on another individual, another community, the environment, this earth, on animals, you know? So, how can we reduce the impact and burden we have on the outside?

32:57

I think every individual has a choice that they can take. We have great power in our hands. We can change things very easily if we just tweak our lives by being slightly more mindful. I believe and hope that if more and more people become more mindful of their choices, the way they travel or how they speak to people and try and build more kindness and compassion, you know, automatically, the world would become a much better place.

33:34

Lalitha Krishnan: Right. I like the way you said, “tweak your life with a little mindfulness”. It makes it sound easier than it actually is.

33:43

Ishita Khanna: You know, like one small little thing every day. If one can do one small little thing. Change one small little thing; be slightly more mindful in your workplace or in how you brush your teeth. Turn the tap off while you brush your teeth. That itself is being mindful and not wasting water, right? If everyone starts doing small little things, it will have a huge impact. Look at our population. If everyone starts doing one tiny little thing, being mindful of their impact or being mindful of how they live, I think it will spiral into a huge impact.

34:22

Lalitha Krishnan: Absolutely. I was just teasing you but I like the words: tweak of mindfulness. Thank you so much Ishita. This was so good.

Ishita Khanna: Thank you Lalitha.

Lalitha Krishnan: Hey, I hope you enjoyed this episode of Heart of Conservation. The transcript for all episodes is available right here on this blog.  Do check out the Spiti Ecosphere website, especially the list of awards they have won for ecotourism. In the meanwhile, be mindful. I’ll catch you next time. Bye.

Birdsong by hillside resident, the collared owlet.

Podcast cover artwork by Lalitha Krishnan

Disclaimer: Views, thoughts, and opinions expressed in the podcast and show notes belong solely to the guest featured in the episode, and not necessarily to the host of this podcast/blog or the guest’s employer, organization, committee or other group or individual.